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-   -   removal of the FD. Need a little assistance.. (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=828493)

roadtrip22 09-22-2012 06:44 PM

removal of the FD. Need a little assistance..
 
So my time has come to remove the FD for repair. The pinion seal is leaking and since I don't have a way to get the whole bike to the shop I've decided to remove the FD and bring it in. Anyways I got everything apart but that big main bolt that bolts the FD to the swing arm is kicking my ass. So from what I could find there is BMW's fancy lock tight on the bolt. I took a heat gun to it and tried but it doesn't seem to want to budge. Am I missing something? Does it have to be really really hot? or is this a 2 person job? one to heat while the other unbolts or heat it and use a impact gun? Are these reverse thread? I don't wanna strip anything out. Any advice would be great help on how to get this damn bolt out.. untill then I'm headed to the store for more beer.. thanks..

TUCKERS 09-22-2012 06:47 PM

i don't like using impact on that one. lots of heat...lots.....then a long bar on your ratchet, maybe a piece of pipe, apply lots of force smoothly, anti clockwise. you did undo the lock nut correct?

roadtrip22 09-22-2012 06:54 PM

http://realoem.com/bmw/diagrams/m/y/245.png

theres that lock ring (#6) but I don't know of any lock nut? And no I have not removed that yet? I didn't think that would need to come out.

MJS 09-22-2012 07:55 PM

No lock nut and #6 snap ring does not need to come out.

holckster 09-22-2012 11:20 PM

"Hall of Wisdom" is your friend.

Takes a mega breaker bar.
http://advwisdom.hogranch.com/Wisdom...ive%20R&R.html


and these tools to reassemble.
http://advwisdom.hogranch.com/Wisdom...er%20tool.html

jdub 09-23-2012 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by holckster (Post 19658680)
"Hall of Wisdom" is your friend.

Takes a mega breaker bar.
http://advwisdom.hogranch.com/Wisdom...ive%20R&R.html


and these tools to reassemble.
http://advwisdom.hogranch.com/Wisdom...er%20tool.html

I think some apples and oranges going on here. The Hall of Wisdom link is for an R1150 FD, but roadtrip22's diagram is for an R1200 - totally different set-ups. The OP didn't specify which bike he has, but the diagram indicates R1200.

MotorradMike 09-23-2012 05:24 AM

His profile says he's got an R1200GS.

Adjust advice accordingly.

diabolik37 09-23-2012 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadtrip22 (Post 19657461)
So my time has come to remove the FD for repair. The pinion seal is leaking and since I don't have a way to get the whole bike to the shop I've decided to remove the FD and bring it in. Anyways I got everything apart but that big main bolt that bolts the FD to the swing arm is kicking my ass. So from what I could find there is BMW's fancy lock tight on the bolt. I took a heat gun to it and tried but it doesn't seem to want to budge. Am I missing something? Does it have to be really really hot? or is this a 2 person job? one to heat while the other unbolts or heat it and use a impact gun? Are these reverse thread? I don't wanna strip anything out. Any advice would be great help on how to get this damn bolt out.. untill then I'm headed to the store for more beer.. thanks..


I got to ask.

If you are good enough to remove the FD from the bike, why don't you just replace the seal yourself?

Am I missing something?

roadtrip22 09-23-2012 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diabolik37 (Post 19659421)
I got to ask.

If you are good enough to remove the FD from the bike, why don't you just replace the seal yourself?

Am I missing something?


I contemplated that from what it looks like you have to remove the pinion bolt to access the seal. I don't have the tools to my disposal to re install the set the proper bearing pre-load unless it's just a torque wrench. local shop wants $250 for it. sadly part it like $18. but I rather have it done right instead of guessing with did I pre-load the bearing right..

Also when I have the seal replaced should I replaced the bearings too?

MJS 09-23-2012 08:59 AM

It was only about $800 IIRC to have my 05 FD rebuilt. Depending on miles on the bike I would consider that since you're going to the trouble to work on it anyways. Problem may be in getting all of the parts (bearings) to do a complete rebuild. BM has changed what they display on the parts diagram. Old parts are usually still available if you cab get the correct part numbers.

I'd talk with your dealer about it. I'd want to know the mechanic doing the work has the experience to shim the bearings and set the preload correctly. That appears to be key to a long FD life.

TUCKERS 09-23-2012 12:21 PM

for some reason i too thought it was a 1150....lock nut at number 11 on the left side

jalal 10-03-2012 03:26 PM

torx size ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by roadtrip22 (Post 19657461)
So my time has come to remove the FD for repair. The pinion seal is leaking and since I don't have a way to get the whole bike to the shop I've decided to remove the FD and bring it in. Anyways I got everything apart but that big main bolt that bolts the FD to the swing arm is kicking my ass. So from what I could find there is BMW's fancy lock tight on the bolt. I took a heat gun to it and tried but it doesn't seem to want to budge. Am I missing something? Does it have to be really really hot? or is this a 2 person job? one to heat while the other unbolts or heat it and use a impact gun? Are these reverse thread? I don't wanna strip anything out. Any advice would be great help on how to get this damn bolt out.. untill then I'm headed to the store for more beer.. thanks..

Hello,

I am in the same boat, trying to remove the final drive on my '05 R1200GS to take it in, and get it rebuild. What size is the torx bolt (item #12) that holds the FD in place ? The biggest that I have is a T50 and it was too small.

Disco Dean 10-03-2012 04:03 PM

If I remember correctly (I might be wrong) you have to remove more than just the FD to change out that pinion seal - as it sits behind the ring/collar that holds everything in - to do that you need the BMW tool or make one on the mill and lather like I did and it took hours just to make the tool.

http://www.maxbmwmotorcycles.com/fic...png?v=08102012

Good idea to remove the FD and take it in.

Note - there is no (preload) on this bearing - it is an angled roller bearing (set shoulder to shoulder) so it is shimmed in - pretty simple to change out once you get the thing apart.

As for the bottom FD bolt the OP asked about - it is a pain and I needed a big extension on my socket to do it with heat - terrible and I thought I would destroy either the wrench or the FD... but it eventually came out.

So lots of heat like others have said and it is fine - BUT the thread locker is on the inside part so best to heat the bolt side - when you do expect the fibre washer and or seals and bearing on that side to be toast so be ready to replace that - should anyways as it is cheap and easy for you to do it - I bought the bolt-pin-seals-gasket ring and bearings complete.

D

jalal 10-03-2012 08:49 PM

T55 ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jalal (Post 19739223)
Hello,

I am in the same boat, trying to remove the final drive on my '05 R1200GS to take it in, and get it rebuild. What size is the torx bolt (item #12) that holds the FD in place ? The biggest that I have is a T50 and it was too small.


I did some measurements with my cheapy calipers,and it looks like it is the same size torx screws as the hand-guard ones. Those are T55 right ?

scooteraug02 10-03-2012 09:22 PM

This may help http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...php?p=15784265
Do you have a wrench on both sides? Looks like you need too.
http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_113.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElGringo (Post 15784265)
I first noticed the problem while pushing the bike out of the garage. The rear tire made a strange squishing noise. I figured perhaps it was low on air, or maybe the tire compound was different (this was a fairly new tire after all) After checking the air pressure, I placed the bike on its center stand and spun the wheel. All seemed fine. However, once I tried rocking the wheel back and forth by holding it at 3 and 9 o’clock, there was noticeable play. The wheel rocked on its axle roughly a millimeter or so.

“Ach du lieber, mine final drive ist kaputt!”

How could this happen? I changed the final drive fluid religiously. The bike has only 53,000 miles. So I contacted my BMW dealer in Orange to get their opinion, and was quoted $3000 to fix. WTF???? Absolutely horrified, it was obviously time for plan B.

First step was to check the bike’s shop manual to see what it had to say. There seemed to be a lot of custom tools required. Not good. So I contacted my friend who works at a machine shop to see how hard it would be to replicate some them. No problem, anything to see what makes this bike tick.

Than it was off to the liquor barn for a case of liquid courage, and I got started.

FINAL DRIVE REMOVAL

Removing the final drive is a fairly straight forward process. With the rear wheel off, I place some blocks under the catalytic converter to act as support in case some one accidentally leans on the bike. I also tied the center stand to the sump guard to prevent any chance of the bike moving forward.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_002.jpg

I figured Id try to do as much disassembly as I could while the final drive was still attached. I started with trying to remove the circlip that holds the wheel flange in place. This proved to be impossible without a circlip removal tool so I was off to Harbor Freight where I found the perfect tool and a cheap laser powered heat thermometer (something that would be really useful later).

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_006.jpg

With the proper tool in hand it was time to remove the circlip, but to my dismay the prongs were too large to fit in the circlip holes. You got to be kidding me? So I bust out the metal file and start modifying. Soon I had it at the right diameter and the clip came off without a fuss.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_008.jpg

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_012.jpg

Next I removed the brake disc. Before doing that, I decided to mark on the wheel flange where the disc was attached. Not sure if this matters, but what the hell. At the very bottom of the final drive, there is a relief where you can get access to the bolts holding the disc in place.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_007.jpg

I removed the cover to the bottom mount with a small screw driver.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_001.jpg

There was also a circlip here that had to be removed.

There is a lot of information on advrider on how to un hinge the final drive and drain its fluid so no need to get in to any of that. I captured the fluid in a cup to check for any metal filings or anything that might tell me what’s going on inside.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_015.jpg

Seemed pretty clean to me.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_016.jpg

Once drained, it was time to remove the assembly. The shop manual says you should use a retaining strap to secure the FD so it wont drop. No pic, but the strap goes through the axle shaft hole and than attaches to the bike frame above. It didn’t seem that necessary to me. Once the bolt was almost all the way out, I could hold the assembly with one hand and drive out the bearing stud using a drift.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_019.jpg

Next I removed the shaft seal cover using a screw driver.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_022.jpg

And than the shaft seal circlip using a little hook.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_024.jpg

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_025.jpg

At this point, I did NOT remove the shaft seal itself. I recalled speaking with one of the mechanics at the Phoenix BMW dealership about this seal, and how it needed to be placed at a specific depth. They had a special tool for this. Without access to this tool, one would need to be made.

After a little bit of cleanup, I headed off with final drive in hand to my friend’s machine shop.


FINAL DRIVE DISASSEMBLY

Step one was to get the wheel flange off. This requires a puller system. After making a few measurements, we started with milling the disc that would press against the axle.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_035.jpg

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_037.jpg

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_039.jpg

The finished product:

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_044.jpg

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_043.jpg

Next the fixture to attach to the wheel flange.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_046.jpg

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_051.jpg

The finished product:

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_053.jpg

Before attaching the fixture to the wheel flange using the wheel bolts, be sure to mark the position of the wheel flange on the axle for assembly later.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_054.jpg

With fixture attached, heat up the wheel flange to ~100..110 degrees Celsius using a heat gun. My new Harbor Freight laser thermometer worked like a champ here.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_057.jpg

Once heated up, the wheel flange came off easily.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_059.jpg

Next it was time to remove the housing cover. We marked the shims so they could be replaced exactly the same way during assembly.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_067.jpg

We removed the screws holding the housing cover. The shop manual says to heat the housing cover to ~80 degrees Celsius, but that didn’t seem necessary. We placed the disc created previously on the opposite side to the axle, and used it to help push the assembly apart.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_068.jpg

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_069.jpg

Next step was to remove the wheel axle from the housing cover. This required another fixture to hold the housing cover securely in place.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_072.jpg

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_075.jpg

The axle disc made earlier was used again to push the parts apart.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_078.jpg

Came apart nice and easy.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_081.jpg

Once apart we could start seeing the problem. Lots of greasy rust all around the main bearing.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_083.jpg

Next step was to remove the shaft seals. We started with removing the larger main seal with a screw driver.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_095.jpg

More greasy rust. So it would seem that the main wheel bearing probably went bad.

Than we removed the smaller shaft seal on the main cover housing also using a screw driver, but not before measuring its depth for later. During assembly we want to place the new seal at the same depth as the old one.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_105.jpg

Than it was on to finally removing the bearings. We started with the smaller crown wheel needle bearing. A simple disc pusher would not work here because of how the bearing is seated.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_100.jpg

You can see how the needle bearing is seated. A disc can not make full contact with all of the bearing. This required something more rectangular.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_102.jpg

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_106.jpg

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_107.jpg

We had to modify our fixture to handle the shape of the main housing cover by trimming away some of it. Once that was complete, we could attach the main housing cover flush up against it.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_110.jpg

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_112.jpg

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_113.jpg

With the rectangular disc in place ready to push the needle bearing out.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_114.jpg

Again you should heat up the housing to a release temperature of ~100 degrees Celsius.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_115.jpg

The main bearing had another circlip that needed to be removed first.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_118.jpg

Than it was on to make another disc just shy of the diameter of the bearing so we could press it out.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_121.jpg

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_122.jpg

Once again we placed, the housing cover in our fixture and pressed out the bearing. Again heating the housing to a release temp of ~100 degrees Celsius.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_123.jpg

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_127.jpg

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_132.jpg

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_135.jpg

Bearings and seals.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_139.jpg

The bevel pinion gear showed no wear and moved fine, so we decided not to touch it.


PARTS AND INSPECTION:

First I cleaned all the parts. while being very careful not to let any dirt accidentally get near the bevel pinion. It appeared to be in good shape and I didn’t want to change that.

I had ordered new parts before taking the final drive apart and all looked in order with the exception of one gasket ring. This gasket ring is shown on the final drive assembly diagram, but was missing from mine.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_143.jpg

This gasket ring should be placed between the main bearing and wheel flange. However, after making a measurement, there was simply no way you could make it fit. I figure this may have been added to later model final drives. This is unfortunate because with out this gasket ring, the main bearing is exposed. My guess is that water will inevitably penetrate the main bearing seal and destroy it as it did to mine.

The shop manual recommends that the thickness of the shims between the housing cover be checked when a new bearing is installed. The new main bearing was identical to the old one so we figured there really should be no reason to adjust them and left it at that.


ASSEMBLY

The first step was to mill push/puller discs for the bearings and seals.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_144.jpg

We started with the crown wheel main bearing and seal. After attaching the housing to our fixture, it was just a matter of heating up the housing to ~100 degrees Celsius and pulling the bearing into place until seated.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_145.jpg

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_146.jpg

After installing the circlip, we pulled the seal into place the same way.

Than it was on to the needle bearing. At first glance the new needle bearing looked like it could be installed flipped any way. However, this is not the case. There is a definite front and back to it. One side of the bearing sleeve is shallower than the other. This allows gear oil to penetrate the bearing easier. This side of the bearing should be installed toward the inside the housing where all the gear oil is for improved lubrication. There is no mention of this in the shop manual, and we almost missed it. Sorry no pic, but is pretty obvious when you look at it.


We swapped housing covers on our fixture and pulled the bearing into place. Again heating the cover before hand.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_147.jpg

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_148.jpg

Next step was to install the wheel axle in to the housing cover. We had to offset the housing cover a bit on our fixture in order to accommodate the axle. Than it was just a matter of pushing the wheel axle until seated. Be sure to lubricate the sealing lip of the shaft sealing ring before hand. The axle should be turned as well during the process in order to keep the sealing lip from doubling over on itself. The axle turned on its own while we wrenched it in to place.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_150.jpg

Than it was time to install the housing cover. We replaced the housing cover O-ring and lubed it a bit for easier assembly. We placed the housing cover in position and turned the axle until we felt the gear splines engage. Than we placed the shims in the same position as they were before. Finally we used a press to lightly push the assembly together evenly.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_153.jpg

After screwing the housing covers together, I placed the entire final drive assembly in the freezer to prepare it for the wheel flange.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_155.jpg

The wheel flange went in to the toaster oven.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_156.jpg

We aligned the wheel flange with the axle using the alignment marks drawn on the parts during disassembly.

The shop manual says that after heating the wheel flange to ~110 degrees Celsius it should slip in to position easily in order to prevent damaging the coating on the wheel axle. Ours required a bit of persuasion with a press. Not a lot though.

Once the wheel flange was seated all the way, we installed the circlip. The manual mentions that if you install the circlip the wrong way it could cause the brakes to overheat. Honestly have no clue what they are talking about. The circlip can only be installed one way, and seems identical on both sides. Decided not to worry about it.

Almost done, just one more step, installing the outer seal. We milled a pusher to the exact depth as measured before hand and pressed the seal in.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_162.jpg

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_168.jpg

And with that we were done. All that was left was to attach the final drive back on to the bike, fill with fluid and test.

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_170.jpg

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_172.jpg

http://www.motopsycho.org/pics/Final...rive11_175.jpg

The play in the rear wheel is now gone, and the wheel turns freely. No more squishy sound either. At this point, it hasn't leaked and appears as good as new. I guess time will tell.

The bearings and seals cost me a couple hundred, I forget exactly how much. I think we used about $20 in aluminum, and went through 2 cases of beer. Of course, the knowledge gained was priceless.

Hope this has some value to some one out there.

Safe travels.
H



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