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110Mike 10-29-2012 01:54 AM

2 Kinds of rider
 
Finally.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
You heard the saying: There are 2 kinds of riders, those who fell, and those who are going to.<o:p></o:p>
4 Years I have been one of the latter. Until today.<o:p></o:p>
I am a fairly aggressive rider, as aggressive as one can be on a R80ST, R100RS or R100RT. Don’t do stupid things like wheelies or doughnuts or things like that, but rides very assertively. Usually very aware of cagers, and able to “read” the road accurately. I have to add at this stage however that 4 weeks ago, a good friend and fellow rider, gave me a reprimand for my aggressive riding style. After that I toned down a bit.<o:p></o:p>
Monday morning, fairly heavy traffic on my 10 mile commute. I pulled in front of a car (normal like, not squid or douchebag like), took a left turn 2<SUP>nd</SUP> or 3<SUP>rd</SUP> gear I think. Leaned fairly well over, following a car about a cycle`s length in front of me. Car in front of me braked suddenly for a car pulling in front of him. Me…leaned over….grabs the front brake….washout.<o:p></o:p>
I hit the ground, recalled my head getting a bang, but that’s all I recall of the spill. Stood up immediately because I was afraid of someone else running over me. My bike laid on its right side 15 meters on, against the sidewalk. Removed my gloves and helmet, and picked the bike up.<o:p></o:p>
My jacket`s left shoulder and elbow is scuffed. My left rear jeans pocket is ripped. I have a rashed up left knee, rashed skin over the lateral malleolus. Some stiffness in neck and shoulder. Slight headache. Although I recall a bang to the head, there is almost no tarmac evidence on my helmet, just a large rubber or plastic scuff. <o:p></o:p>
Damage to the bike. Now what I find difficult to understand: I took the spill leaning left, the left crashbar is bent and scratched, and by my reckoning I should only have kept on sliding on the left side. But it seems the bike flipped over as the right pannier was off, the right exhaust bent up, the right crashbar bent and scratched. I suspect that I may have hit the car I was trailing, and flipped over?<o:p></o:p>
The car in front of me was the only one that stopped. I did not see any damage to it, and the driver did not mention anything. I sent him on his way as I was sure I did not need help, and that the spill was entirely my own fault. So I was in no state of mind to go over the accident with him. I also did not realize that I may have hit him.<o:p></o:p>
My heart aches for my (ex-) pristine R100RT bought 3 weeks ago, with only 8800 miles on!<o:p></o:p>
Lessons learned:<o:p></o:p>
1) Do not try to predict the traffic. Although one gets a “feeling” for the traffic over time, you always get an exception. In this case the driver in front of me was new to the area, and failed to “predict” the car pulling in front of him.<o:p></o:p>
2) When your ability to stop safely is compromised, such as when leaned over, increase your following distance.<o:p></o:p>
3) There is a fine line between assertive and aggressive riding<o:p></o:p>
Ride safe….Always<o:p></o:p>

tkent02 10-29-2012 03:22 AM

Your friend was right.

ZAC949 10-29-2012 04:45 AM

I am certain he figured that out, hence the post!

390beretta 10-29-2012 05:55 AM

Sorry about your bike, glad you're OK! You were a bike length behind the car??? Way to close my friend!

DudeMang 10-29-2012 08:31 AM

A good reminder for all of us. As crashes or scares move further into our past, we transition more and more from assertive to aggressive riding.

Glad to hear that you are alright.

DOGSROOT 10-29-2012 08:40 AM

Hey 110Mike,

Sorry to hear about your accident.

You're lucky it wasn't worse.

Hope you heal quickly. :norton

Folks are gonna rag on ya for SOTGATT, and for the tailgating.

I'll try and refrain from being judgemental, and offer a few (hopefully helpful) comments.


If the car in front of you gets smucked, it'd be nice to have a little more room, so as not to be automatically

involved in the fallout... :norton


You may want to invest in a pair of riding pants.

I have the BMW Summer Pants II and III, in beige and black.

Lov'em!

The Summer Pants III seem cooler, even though black, due to sun reflecting voodoo.

They would have prevented road rash.

Boots would also be prudent.



Another thought; you have some nice bikes.

However, they may not suit an aggressive rider IN AN URBAN ENVIRONMENT.

I'd suggest you look at adding a K 75 or K 100 or K 1100 w/ ABS for the city, in addition to your

beautiful collection of twins.

They're all available pretty inexpensively, and the ABS would have prevented this washout.

YMMV

Hell, when I think about it, might as well go whole hog and get the new Ducati MTS 1200...

...It comes w/ ABS. :evil

There are those that rag on ABS, but there's a very good reason that aeroplanes have ABS,

some since 1929!!!



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lo...#Early_systems

NJ-Brett 10-29-2012 08:44 AM

I rate myself as a very agressive rider, but no way I am staying a bike length behind cars in that kind of traffic.
I get closer then is good on the interstate to draft sometimes (I have a little bike) but never in traffic like that with people expected to do sudden and dumb things.

You ALWAYS have to leave an out.

Plus, if you are one bike or car length behind something, there is no time to dodge a big sharp edged pot hole or oil slick that you could not see.

If you do not want to go down, you can not over ride your sight lines at any time.
That has worked for me for the last 35 years.

I am glad you were not hurt, I think it would be easy to get run over in that situation, which would not be fun.

Islesfan91 10-29-2012 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DOGSROOT (Post 19923657)
Hey 110Mike,

Sorry to hear about your accident.

You're lucky it wasn't worse.

Hope you heal quickly. :norton

Folks are gonna rag on ya for SOTGATT, and for the tailgating.

I'll try and refrain from being judgemental, and offer a few (hopefully helpful) comments.


If the car in front of you gets smucked, it'd be nice to have a little more room, so as not to be automatically

involved in the fallout... :norton


You may want to invest in a pair of riding pants.

I have the BMW Summer Pants II and III, in beige and black.

Lov'em!

The Summer Pants III seem cooler, even though black, due to sun reflecting voodoo.

They would have prevented road rash.

Boots would also be prudent.



Another thought; you have some nice bikes.

However, they may not suit an aggressive rider IN AN URBAN ENVIRONMENT.

I'd suggest you look at adding a K 75 or K 100 or K 1100 w/ ABS for the city, in addition to your

beautiful collection of twins.

They're all available pretty inexpensively, and the ABS would have prevented this washout.

YMMV

Hell, when I think about it, might as well go whole hog and get the new Ducati MTS 1200...

...It comes w/ ABS. :evil

There are those that rag on ABS, but there's a very good reason that aeroplanes have ABS,

some since 1929!!!



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lo...#Early_systems

I'm confused, not disagreeing, so I'll ask, if he had abs and grabbed the front brake while leaned in a corner how will the abs prevent the crash? I was taught if you grab the brakes in a corner you're going down. I was also told by a rep at a kawasaki dealer that races that even with abs, the brakes still have the potential to lock for a split second, and at lean, that seems unlikely it would prevent a crash.

just interested and trying to understand.

John Bentall 10-29-2012 12:53 PM

I am a resident of the UK and am fairly horrified by the reports of poor driving by cagers over in the US. Rear ender's, people on cell phones and drivers not looking before pulling out or using mirrors before turning left. I am reading that many people have incidents at junctions.

Is the answer to avoid overtakes near junctions, exits to shopping malls etc. ?

I no longer overtake in such situations unless I have a very clear view into the junction and am 100% certain that it empty.

In the UK we tend not to use the word "aggressive" but rather "progressive" - as it making good progress. Aggressive has too many negative overtones and we are meant too be sharing the road with other users including pedestrians and animals!

John

Bump Stop 10-29-2012 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Bentall (Post 19925553)
I am a resident of the UK and am fairly horrified by the reports of poor driving by cagers over in the US. Rear ender's, people on cell phones and drivers not looking before pulling out or using mirrors before turning left. I am reading that many people have incidents at junctions.

Is the answer to avoid overtakes near junctions, exits to shopping malls etc. ?

I no longer overtake in such situations unless I have a very clear view into the junction and am 100% certain that it empty.

In the UK we tend not to use the word "aggressive" but rather "progressive" - as it making good progress. Aggressive has too many negative overtones and we are meant too be sharing the road with other users including pedestrians and animals!

John

we have a lot of area, and far more 2 lane high speed roads than you do.

mach1charlie 10-29-2012 01:52 PM

A fellow rider told me, a sliding bike always flips. When you lay it down or low side, alway get away from the bike. He was still on it when it fliped, hurt him badly.
Watch race footage you will see it happen.

Also motorcycles can not out brake cars...even in a stright line. But hey, your here to bitch about it and getting smarter.

Barnone 10-29-2012 05:03 PM

From OP "Leaned fairly well over, following a car about a cycle`s length in front of me. Car in front of me braked suddenly for a car pulling in front of him. Me…leaned over….grabs the front brake….washout."

From DOGSROOT
"They're all available pretty inexpensively, and the ABS would have prevented this washout."

Since the OP was "leaned fairly well over" ABS would not have prevented this washout. Momentary lockup of the front brake/wheel when leaned over and you are probably down, ABS is good but not idiot proof.

DOGSROOT 10-30-2012 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Islesfan91 (Post 19925511)
I'm confused, not disagreeing, so I'll ask, if he had abs and grabbed the front brake while leaned in a corner how will the abs prevent the crash? I was taught if you grab the brakes in a corner you're going down. I was also told by a rep at a kawasaki dealer that races that even with abs, the brakes still have the potential to lock for a split second, and at lean, that seems unlikely it would prevent a crash.

just interested and trying to understand.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Barnone (Post 19927396)
From OP "Leaned fairly well over, following a car about a cycle`s length in front of me. Car in front of me braked suddenly for a car pulling in front of him. Me…leaned over….grabs the front brake….washout."

From DOGSROOT
"They're all available pretty inexpensively, and the ABS would have prevented this washout."

Since the OP was "leaned fairly well over" ABS would not have prevented this washout. Momentary lockup of the front brake/wheel when leaned over and you are probably down, ABS is good but not idiot proof.


I find this very interesting.

Islesfan91's question and Barnone's assertions sent me to the www for a little research.

Quite the controversy!

I found a couple of ABS engineers battling it out on BMWMOA.

Here's three quotes from their debate:



"Here is an interesting quote right fom the BMW technical report on ABS, including the EVO system: "With or without ABS - braking is only possible to a limited extent when heeled over in a corner." "

"ABS works at any lean angle -- however, the *effectiveness* of ABS in terms of saving your tail decreases as lean angle increased, simply because the available traction decreases the farther over you are. As some point, the lean angle and current traction conditions (defined by tire material and construction, road surface, ambient temperature, etc.) are such that ABS is essentially useless. At other times, as noted above, you may still be sufficeintly within the ABS effectiveness envelope for it to save your tail."

"Don't be planning on relying on ABS to save you when your cornering judgment has not been at its peak."



When I read the OP, I thought that the key words:

"Fairly heavy traffic",

"Normal like, not squid or douchebag like",

"Took a left turn",


and

"Sidewalk"

all indicated surface streets and a left hand turn at a light.

Unless my assumptions were wrong, his speed and lean angle were not likely all that great.

I figured he hit some gravel, or an oily patch, and that ABS *might* have helped given those conditions.

I *am* aware that ABS ain't black magic; I've lost it on streetcar tracks both w/ and w/out ABS. :cry

At slow speeds too. :baldy





I ride pretty hard, but in the rain I'm more conservative than anyone else I ride with.

I attribute this to the fact that I ride all year, and am very leery of the wet, especially in the winter. :rofl

I have needed to use the brakes in hot turns before, and actually thought that the ABS had helped me;

nice to think that it was in fact my "peak cornering judgement" that kept me up!!! :norton



Here's some fun ABS footage.

Couldn't find any clowns testing ABS in corners.

Wonder why? :evil

http://m.youtube.com/?piggyback=2#/w...%3D-Zv3Sacl7JQ

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Q5wqq...%3DQ5wqqg97r4E

Switchblade315 10-30-2012 05:46 AM

sounds to me like the bike chucked you when it flipped. you hit the breaks it went down hit the crash bar and came back up enough for the front tire to touch the ground. it was now in a full turn and caused the bike to flop over the the other side. and this is a hard flop because all it the momentum you had just got transferred to this one movement.

think of it like this. how ever fast your tires rotate at what ever speed you where going, you and your bike flipped over at the same rotation speed. or at lest really close to it. done it on the dirt and it hurt like hell.

Pecha72 10-30-2012 05:52 AM

Big German magazine Motorrad tested in 2010 a VFR1200 ABS braking during cornering in different speeds, and various lean angles. Their conclusion was, that in normal road-riding situations it is clearly an improvement in safety, and that the front does NOT wash out under any sensible lean angles. In fact it never happened to them.

But it's good to also keep in mind: ABS is just a general term for the anti-locking brake system, and there are many different manufacturers as well as many generations of the system used in different decades, not to mention the differences between bikes, tyres, etc. So they will not always function exactly the same way.

I believe all modern ABS systems will help you, if you need to brake hard when leaned over. This test seemed to confirm that.


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