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roger 04 rt 01-21-2013 04:38 AM

2004 R1150 Alternator Problem
 
Started up this yesterday, rode to get a newspaper. Stopped, went to start, wouldn't turn over. The battery was only charged enough to move the engine a quarter turn. I put it in 6th and rolled it down hill and it started, phew.

Rode home. Shut off. Tried restarting, and it turned over and started.

I noticed the other day that the Batt/Alt light bulb didn't turn on with the key but thought I'd look into it later. I was able to duplicate that symptom. When I measure the D+ wire at the alternator it's at 12 volts, which is coming from the indicator lamp, so it seems that the rotor, slip rings or voltage regulator isn't providing a ground. I the grounded D+ lead to make sure the bulb and wire were good and the bulb lit so everything is good up to the alternator. To me it appears that either the slip ring connection to the rotor is intermittent, or a wire is loose at the regulator or the voltage regulator has a problem.

The bike is an '04 R1150 with just under 30K miles. How likely is it that the slip rings aren't making a good connection?

Steptoe 01-21-2013 11:45 AM

The starting failure sounds more like a starter motor problem.

JRP 01-21-2013 12:29 PM

Check your battery cables on both ends, especially the ground .

roger 04 rt 01-21-2013 07:19 PM

Thanks for the suggestions.

I won't be able to open it up for a couple days but I now think I have two problems. One is that the alternator D+ circuit has a problem which I have to step my way through.

The second issue is that either the starter is drawing a lot of current sometimes or the battery, a less than one year old PC680, is defective and loses charge.

I'll post again when I know more.

def 01-21-2013 08:05 PM

Oh boy, this is gonna be educational.

I believe Roger knows Ohm, Kirchoff, Volta, Schottky and Tesla personally...maybe even Plank, Joule and Coulomb.

I'm stayin' tuned.

:lurk

Steptoe 01-22-2013 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by def (Post 20545790)
Oh boy, this is gonna be educational.

I believe Roger knows Ohm, Kirchoff, Volta, Schottky and Tesla personally...maybe even Plank, Joule and Coulomb.

I'm stayin' tuned.

:lurk

Lets hope he knows that the metal dirt guard in the starter motor has a habit of coming loose and shorting.
And that the combined bare earths in the instrument loom have a common habit of corroding due to water ingress in the outer sheath and causing instrument light problems . :D

roger 04 rt 01-22-2013 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steptoe (Post 20546886)
Lets hope he knows that the metal dirt guard in the starter motor has a habit of coming loose and shorting.
And that the combined bare earths in the instrument loom have a common habit of corroding due to water ingress in the outer sheath and causing instrument light problems . :D

I didn't know any of those things, thank you. Could you tell me what the normal range of starter currents is?

The battery took a long time to recharge so I'm thinking starter motor load is depleting the battery. I've had the starter motor out about a year ago and it didn't seem to need much more than cleaning to get the post-start squealing to disappear. But not knowing about the magnets and not realizing what a meal I would make out of getting the circlip and retainer back on the shaft I ran out of time and never opened the motor—so I get to do it a second time.

It could be a wiring problem with that light but given the there is +12V on the D+ at the diag connector, no Batt/Alt light and no alternator start. It seems like either there is no +12V at the D+ post on the alternator or a problem inside it.

But I won't know much more till I open it up which won't happen until I shovel some snow. Hear that Def?

Beezer 01-22-2013 09:40 AM

first thing I would start off with is the easy stuff... alternator B+ should have battery voltage at all times. that voltage should rise when the engine is running, and it should stabilize somewhere around 14v. if it does that the next thing I would do is load test the battery.

the initial inrush current to the starter could be as high as a couple hundred amps for half a second or so... most meters can not respond in time to read that. without some specs it's hard to evaluate the starter motor unless it is really screwed. I can make an educated guess at the no load run current but thats all it would be. also, some series motors don't like to be run no load... not enough current to let the CEMF limit RPM resulting in the motor flinging out it's windings.

def 01-23-2013 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roger 04 rt (Post 20547106)
I didn't know any of those things, thank you. Could you tell me what the normal range of starter currents is?

The battery took a long time to recharge so I'm thinking starter motor load is depleting the battery. I've had the starter motor out about a year ago and it didn't seem to need much more than cleaning to get the post-start squealing to disappear. But not knowing about the magnets and not realizing what a meal I would make out of getting the circlip and retainer back on the shaft I ran out of time and never opened the motor—so I get to do it a second time.

It could be a wiring problem with that light but given the there is +12V on the D+ at the diag connector, no Batt/Alt light and no alternator start. It seems like either there is no +12V at the D+ post on the alternator or a problem inside it.

But I won't know much more till I open it up which won't happen until I shovel some snow. Hear that Def?

Oh quit whinin' about a little snow and take trip to Legal Seafood or Jimmy's Harborside Inn and eat a lobster.

OK, wait a minute...Jimmy's is closed...try Anthony's Pier 4....

MsLizVt 01-23-2013 11:25 AM

Instead ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by def (Post 20557075)
Oh quit whinin' about a little snow and take trip to Legal Seafood or Jimmy's Harborside Inn and eat a lobster.

OK, wait a minute...Jimmy's is closed...try Anthony's Pier 4....


No Name ...

roger 04 rt 01-23-2013 12:43 PM

Back to business ...

I pulled all the plastic and the fuel tank. The Blue D+ wire connects to a spade terminal on the alternator with a press-on female spade. Wiggling that connection restored continuity to the circuit and the Batt/Alt light now comes on at Key On. My garage is below freezing today and that press-on connection is in a knuckle-busting location. As soon as it warms up I'll check for corrosion and/or a loose fit. It looks like I won't have to pull the alternator.

Further investigation of the starter will have to wait for a warmer day.

RB

def 01-24-2013 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MsLizVt (Post 20557831)
No Name ...

Liz...can you explain?

We're talking about Boston restaurants here. I used to frequent Jimmy's years ago but have not been to Boston in, oh, I dunno, 25 years maybe?

I see it is now Legal Harborside.

As a kid (about 5), I went aboard the Constitution (Boston harbor, circa 1943) and rang the ship's bell. All hands came running...dad had to apologize to the OD on duty.

MsLizVt 01-24-2013 09:30 AM

Hijack on ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by def (Post 20564216)
Liz...can you explain?

We're talking about Boston restaurants here. I used to frequent Jimmy's years ago but have not been to Boston in, oh, I dunno, 25 years maybe?

I see it is now Legal Harborside.

As a kid (about 5), I went aboard the Constitution (Boston harbor, circa 1943) and rang the ship's bell. All hands came running...dad had to apologize to the OD on duty.


Def, hi!

I can explain.

In between Anthony's Pier 4 and Jimmy's Harborside, is the Boston Fish Pier. This is where the fishing boats come in every day and at the end of the pier is where the fish are bid on, every morning. The boats are lined up on both sides of the pier, fish are unloaded, and then they go into the buildings on each side of the pier, where they are sorted and sometimes processed. From there the fish go through the building to the trucks, which take them to the various processing plants or refrigerated buildings, to be readied to ship to stores.

So half way up the pier is this one little door way, with seven steps up to it, that the guys who work on the pier go to eat. There's no name on the door, no sign above it, and nothing to make it look different than any other entrance into any of the other processing businesses. This is a little hole in the wall place that has the best seafood in all of Boston. It used to be BYOB, and you'd see people showing up with coolers full of beer or wine. That's changed, now both wine and beer are on the menu. The fish chowder was unbelievable, as was every other dish. How could it not be, the fish literally was coming off the boat into their kitchen door.

They were open at night, and it would be common to have a line out the door, waiting to be seated. My guess is they have probably been voted the best seafood restaurant in Boston for years and years. But it's not fancy like Jimmy's or Anthony's. It's a combination of your local diner, and old world Boston.

No Name Restaurant in Boston <--- link


http://www.nonamerestaurant.com/imag...storyPhoto.jpg





I will say that as great as No Name is, that doesn't mean Anthony's and Jimmy's weren't incredible, they were. Anthony's still serves the giant pop-overs, outstanding food, and has the walls of fame with photos of every movie star and politician. Jimmy's always had great food, and a certain classy culture to it.

One thing about Jimmy's was if you had a job there, it probably meant your father had a job there at one time, and his father before him. My best recollection is the waiters (no waitresses back then, not at Jimmy's) were in their 50's to 70's, the bus boys weren't much younger. And predominantly you could tell that everyone was from The North End.

Here's an accounting folklore story about Jimmy's. In the 70's I was at Bentley College, in Boston, an accounting school. One of my tax professors explained about taxes on wages for waiters and waitresses by telling the story about Jimmy's.

The IRS stationed investigators in cars outside of Jimmy's for months. They counted the number of people who went into Jimmy's every day and night. From the attendance numbers they extrapolated what the gross revenues were. Using that number they were able to estimate what each waiter was making in tips. Then they audited everyone. Back then, the waiters were claiming $4000 to $10,000 in tips, but the IRS had figured out they were making $35,000 to $60,000 a year in tips. This was in the early 70's!

The case hit the news of course, and it was used as an example in front of Congress to change the reporting requirements of employers, and set up the 8% law, that every server had to claim at least 8% in tips on their daily sales. For anyone who's been a waiter or waitress, you'll probably remember the 8% rule. The law said to claim the higher of actual tips or 8%.

So there, now that I've thoroughly hijacked this thread, that's the story of The No Name Restaurant.

How's that?


Liz


def 01-24-2013 07:48 PM

Wow Liz, you're a story teller like me...

We could probably talk each other's arms and legs loose with our stories...like the time the family was living in Cambridge (WWII) and dad was in the USN studying at MIT to learn about how to invent RADAR and I would go to the Rad Lab with him and twist switches and knobs on prototypes RADARs....and the air raids and blackouts....

But, I digress. Next time I get to Boston, I'm goin' to the harbor and find no name.

73

def 01-24-2013 07:54 PM

I just realized, we're gonna have to teach Roger how to spell alternator...Heh-heh. :deal


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