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-   -   05 950 Adv clutch drag (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=863132)

Hisbikes 02-14-2013 11:37 AM

05 950 Adv clutch drag
 
I hate flogging a dead horse and there's heaps of info but I need to get a clear answer of what to do. I just bought a 05 950 done 45K km's and still under dealer warranty. I've returned the bike 3 times now to the KTM dealer and even had the Australasia KTM technical lead work on the bike and this issue seems to persist. They have removed the clutch, inspected, found no issues or wear, oil jet cleaned and checked. Replaced o-rings in the slave cylinder, flushed fluid replaced with the correct Motorex mineral stuff. With the bike cold and idling clutch engaged, the throttle is blipped the bike runs forward, after about an hours of riding it seems to improve but still slight movement when this is done and gearbox seems to be a bit chunky when gearing down.

Boatman 02-14-2013 12:10 PM

Has the clutch pushrod been updated..... sounds like a classic issue of the early pushrods.

ABuck99 02-14-2013 01:27 PM

OEM Clutch Slave Failing?

v8toilet 02-14-2013 01:30 PM

I did all the updates to my 04 it still had a light drag.

Boatman 02-14-2013 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by v8toilet (Post 20725677)
I did all the updates to my 04 it still had a light drag.


Same here,,,,new slave, pushrod, oil jet....still had/have a slight drag. I did notice though that if I raise the idle a touch, the drag goes away.

rossguzzi 02-14-2013 06:48 PM

My 03 does the same too. I have done new slave, measured roughed up all steel plates, fibre plates in spec, total clutch pac in spec, bled system 15 times, updated rod, proper fluid lever adjust, oil jet clean and drilled slightly bigger.
Yesterday while inspecting once again I noticed I have wear marks on clutch basket from fibre plates and the 1st steel plate that has the thrust bearing in it has quite a bit of wear. I am wondering if this has worn too much to the extent that it is replicating worn plates. I have never seen specs that this should be in.
I can not think of anything else it could be. I am even thinking of pulling the bearing and shimming it a bit before replacing it. This would move that plate 'out' just a smige to see if that fixes it. Or put a shim washer on the end of the rod to gain the same thing.
It is a PITA as is so lets try to nut this one out for good.

By the way I have had 2 Aprilia Rotax bikes. I have bled them. from new slaves to new m/c. Never a problem. In fact I have never opened up my clutches even though I did 90 k klms one one.

Cheers

Just got back from a short ride after scuffing up the steels again. Clutch works fine. I think there is a problem of not enough oil getting in to lube the plates. After scuffing them with 100 grit wet and dry I made sure each fibre plate had a coating of oil. My theory is the roughed up plates hold a film of oil in the tiny grooves made by the grit. After some use the steel plates wear the plates smooth again and if there is not enough oil supply to the clutch, you get creep.
I am also going to check the oil pressure regulator spring to make sure it`s in spec and that its the updated type.

Those that are having the creeping issue, do you also have noisy cam chain start ups some times when hot? I do.

gefr 02-15-2013 12:53 AM

Hello creepy clutch patients.
 
I had this issue since new, on a 2003 model. The factory's improvements where the installation of an oil reduction jet #30 instead of a plug, close to the clutch slave cylinder and the update of the clutch pushrod. Other updates were made to the slave cylinder itself.
On the clutch my conclusions are as follows:
The deeper steel plate gets a groove from friction to the belevil spring. It should be swapped with a healthy one if the groove is getting deep. This can be quite an improvement by itself.
The central nut holding the internal basket in place can get loose. This should also be adressed as the power of the motor passes through there.
The oil reduction jet can have its passage increased to 0.50mm.
Finally if all previous do not work, clutch plates need replacement. They tend to wrap from thermal stress and oil cannot separate them. In my experience after 45k kms clutch service life starts to get close to its end. Mind you there are some cheap after market alternatives out there.
Cheers.

redass 02-15-2013 09:26 AM

Had the same problem on my 06. I tried everything no luck. Finally I plugged the oil jet. Problem completely solved. I think too much oil stays in the clutch and the viscus drag is what causes the problem. I have put about 10k on the bike since and miked the clutch plates a few times and found no significant wear. I don't really abuse the clutch, perhaps if I did the added oil would be required but I don't see any problems yet and the clutch works a thousand times better.

crofrog 02-15-2013 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redass (Post 20731885)
Had the same problem on my 06. I tried everything no luck. Finally I plugged the oil jet. Problem completely solved. I think too much oil stays in the clutch and the viscus drag is what causes the problem. I have put about 10k on the bike since and miked the clutch plates a few times and found no significant wear. I don't really abuse the clutch, perhaps if I did the added oil would be required but I don't see any problems yet and the clutch works a thousand times better.

That's bad for riding off road, but yes with the oil jet it'll drag slightly when you blip the throttle, so just dont do that. no big deal.

ridewestKTM 02-15-2013 06:56 PM

too much oil in the clutch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crofrog (Post 20732734)
That's bad for riding off road, but yes with the oil jet it'll drag slightly when you blip the throttle, so just dont do that. no big deal.

I don't know about plugging it but for sure my experience is a little more oil passing thru the clutch makes a "drag" feeling. There is a slight difference if it's really dragging like it is not disengauging - bliping the throtle will increase the pulling away, whereas a little to much oil will actually drag less if the engine speed goes up.

I have a slightly larger jet (long story) and I like it because I get this characteristic and know the jet isn't clogged.
Our difference in observation could be the amount of oil passing. My "larger" jet is drilled at .012 inch. Just a hair larger.
FWIW

pdxmotorhead 02-15-2013 10:03 PM

Not on my KTM,,, but my old DR350 was very sensitive to oil type an clutch behaviour.

Full dino created clutch drag, Full synth and the clutch would slip, Honda Blend was just right.. So I believe the oil can affect things a lot.. And its probably tied to the individual clutch clearances and wear..

Just my oily wild guess..

Dave

gefr 02-15-2013 11:42 PM

Another reason could be coolant mixed with the oil.
 
Water pump failure leaks coolant in the oil, oil brakes down and its lubrication becomes uneffective. That can also cause drag. I don't think this is the case here, just bring it up to cover all possible reasons of clutch drag.

crofrog 02-15-2013 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdxmotorhead (Post 20736719)
Not on my KTM,,, but my old DR350 was very sensitive to oil type an clutch behaviour.

Full dino created clutch drag, Full synth and the clutch would slip, Honda Blend was just right.. So I believe the oil can affect things a lot.. And its probably tied to the individual clutch clearances and wear..

Just my oily wild guess..

Dave

I'd agree with that Rotella made my bike and my friends bike feel shitty both 950's. More clutch drag and chunky gear engagements but feels great with motorex.

It also makes my 450 shift like shit...

I'm sure all the Rotella fan boys will be stepping in hear in a second, to them I can only say either you're not tuned in enough to notice, or you don't care.

Lc8grrr 02-16-2013 03:31 AM

Lots of complicated fixes on here. Ive had my 950 from new, now at 75,000k and had the clutch drag and grabiness for a long time. Read some info on here from someone clued on (can't remember who) that suggested to look at the steels in the clutch assembly. Sure enough a few of them were in wrong. They are stamped when made which will give a sharp edge and a smooth edge, that is what the stamping process does. The manual says that all of the sharp edges need to be facing the same way. Pulled it appart, reassembled correctly and clutch fixed. This is with a groove in the last steel from the bellevelle spring that I didnt shift to a new location.

rossguzzi 02-16-2013 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lc8grrr (Post 20737448)
Lots of complicated fixes on here. Ive had my 950 from new, now at 75,000k and had the clutch drag and grabiness for a long time. Read some info on here from someone clued on (can't remember who) that suggested to look at the steels in the clutch assembly. Sure enough a few of them were in wrong. They are stamped when made which will give a sharp edge and a smooth edge, that is what the stamping process does. The manual says that all of the sharp edges need to be facing the same way. Pulled it appart, reassembled correctly and clutch fixed. This is with a groove in the last steel from the bellevelle spring that I didnt shift to a new location.

I knew about facing the steels the right way. Just thought I would add that after roughing up my steels the other day, the clutch felt much better. I have just got back from a 300 km ride mostly lower speed tracks, and it still feels good. No creep and a slight blip at stop to get N.
Discussing this with a mate, who is a mech, he thinks that perhaps the steels are slightly warped. It is worth a check. I might pull mine and using a flat bit of glass etc check for warp.
BTW I use full syth Motorex


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