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-   -   Would A B S have saved her? (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=915942)

viverrid 08-30-2013 06:07 PM

Would A B S have saved her?
 
Better riding certainly would have. We both made the same maneuver. I completed it routinely, she crashed.

Wife & I were each on our own dualsport thumpers. DRZ for me, XT-225 for her. We were riding along a paved road and wanted to make a 90 degree right onto a dirt road. We were rolling along pretty well. I braked hard, straight ahead on the pavement, released and turned onto the dirt.

My wife braked hard on the pavement and was still braking hard as she turned onto the dirt. Of course the front tucked and down she went. Bad sprain resulted. We were both really upset at the time and in hindsight I felt bad that I didn't just stop on the pavement and make sure she was stopped, before we both turned in. (A full stop wasn't necessary at all, but would have made sure she was okay to turn in.)

She said later, weeks later when she was finally willing to talk about it, that it never occurred to her that she should let up on the brake before turning onto the dirt. She drove cars for too much of her life and she drove the bike into the corner like she would have driven her car in (so what if the front tires scrubbed),

So is this what front ABS is for?

randyo 08-30-2013 06:39 PM

ABS prevents wheel from locking, not side slip

if your going too fast to corner on a loose surface, slowing down after the fact doesn't help

when lead riding in a group of any type, 2 people, 10 people, communicate impending turns ahead

joexr 08-30-2013 06:42 PM

If she didn't already know where you were going then you wrecked your wife yourself.

randyo 08-30-2013 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joexr (Post 22220818)
If she didn't already know where you were going then you wrecked your wife yourself.

I actually thought that, but didn't want to say it

second guessing after the fact is like saying, I might try that again

I have to ask viverid, Did your ABS engage?

corndog67 08-30-2013 07:12 PM

Vivian, I don't mean to get personal here, but I've been reading your posts about your wife learning how to ride and the subsequent mishaps. And I've come to the conclusions, that you probably aren't the guy that ought to be teaching her how to ride. I taught my wife how to ride, starting out on a KTM500mxc 2 stroke on the beach at Pismo (no, she couldn't kick start it), then a YZ250 2 stroke, then a GS500 twin, GZ250, then a Sportster, then my Ducati S4 916. She never hit the ground on the street. But I was a nervous wreck, if she was going to fast, especially on the Duc, I'd get past her and slow her down. I never led her into shit I didn't think she could handle, and she seemed to have a bit of self preservation instinct. But eventually, she stopped riding. Of which I'm glad, there worst thing, in my mind, would be to see her bouncing down the road.

Now, it appears you led your wife into this one. You being the more experienced rider and all. And no, ABS wouldn't have saved her. ABS is a helpful addition, but it does not replace riding skill. I think if you continue to do this stuff with her, you are.going to get her killed or suffering some major injuries, and I'm 100% serious about that. Get her some real instruction, or get her off a bike before its too late.

SgtDuster 08-30-2013 07:28 PM

Riding course first and then let her learn form her mistakes. I mean, it's how we all learned, right?

viverrid 08-30-2013 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randyo (Post 22220842)
I have to ask viverid, Did your ABS engage?

A DRZ doesn't have ABS.

ThumperStorm 08-30-2013 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corndog67 (Post 22221028)
Vivian, I don't mean to get personal here, but I've been reading your posts about your wife learning how to ride and the subsequent mishaps. And I've come to the conclusions, that you probably aren't the guy that ought to be teaching her how to ride. I taught my wife how to ride, starting out on a KTM500mxc 2 stroke on the beach at Pismo (no, she couldn't kick start it), then a YZ250 2 stroke, then a GS500 twin, GZ250, then a Sportster, then my Ducati S4 916. She never hit the ground on the street. But I was a nervous wreck, if she was going to fast, especially on the Duc, I'd get past her and slow her down. I never led her into shit I didn't think she could handle, and she seemed to have a bit of self preservation instinct. But eventually, she stopped riding. Of which I'm glad, there worst thing, in my mind, would be to see her bouncing down the road.

Now, it appears you led your wife into this one. You being the more experienced rider and all. And no, ABS wouldn't have saved her. ABS is a helpful addition, but it does not replace riding skill. I think if you continue to do this stuff with her, you are.going to get her killed or suffering some major injuries, and I'm 100% serious about that. Get her some real instruction, or get her off a bike before its too late.

:nod

viverrid 08-30-2013 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SgtDuster (Post 22221119)
Riding course first and then let her learn form her mistakes. I mean, it's how we all learned, right?

We've been over that before. She took and passed the riding course. The riding course is all at low speeds on a level paved parking lot. No dirt.

There was another thread where another inmate wrote about his wife being newly licensed after taking the course, in which she did great. So she went riding around the block in their own neighborhood. She didn't come back so he went looking. He found her down only a block or so away, she'd been cornering hard and went over some sand or gravel. She didn't know why she went down. He showed her the gravel. She asked "that made me crash?" And was sour on riding ever after. She didn't have any gravel on the MSF range and it wouldn't have made her car crash.

However, my wife also took and passed MSF-dirt. But that's all low speed on a range smaller than our former back yard (we live in town now). No transitions on & off pavement.

We have talked about her crash. In hindsight I would have stopped on the pavement and waited even though it was not necessary. But she says it was her decision to turn. She saw me go in and thought she could make it too. She could have if she'd turned WHERE it was I turned, rather than WHEN it was I turned. She was well back and if I had time to brake so did she.

Because she doesn't ride woods, her bike has more of a dualsport front and has a LOT more front grip (either braking or turning) on pavement than my bike does. Not quite as good on a dirt road, but I don't think ANY front tire would have gripped enough for what she did.

My DRZ has a knobby front, I know it can be pushed braking on pavement as long as I keep my weight back. I don't know if it would actually stoppie if I put my weight forward, I've never tried. I doubt it, I think it would still push.

DAKEZ 08-30-2013 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by viverrid (Post 22220597)
Would A B S have saved her?

No, ABS would NOT have saved her in this instance.

WVhillbilly 08-30-2013 07:58 PM

Any dirt riding courses in your area?
I think this is the best course of action for your wife.

Mine doesn't ride her own bike anymore, and I'm kinda glad because I worried about her a lot.

Aj Mick 08-30-2013 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by viverrid (Post 22220597)
Better riding certainly would have. We both made the same maneuver. I completed it routinely, she crashed.

Wife & I were each on our own dualsport thumpers. DRZ for me, XT-225 for her. We were riding along a paved road and wanted to make a 90 degree right onto a dirt road. We were rolling along pretty well. I braked hard, straight ahead on the pavement, released and turned onto the dirt.

My wife braked hard on the pavement and was still braking hard as she turned onto the dirt. Of course the front tucked and down she went. Bad sprain resulted. We were both really upset at the time and in hindsight I felt bad that I didn't just stop on the pavement and make sure she was stopped, before we both turned in. (A full stop wasn't necessary at all, but would have made sure she was okay to turn in.)

She said later, weeks later when she was finally willing to talk about it, that it never occurred to her that she should let up on the brake before turning onto the dirt. She drove cars for too much of her life and she drove the bike into the corner like she would have driven her car in (so what if the front tires scrubbed),

So is this what front ABS is for?

No; ABS on a bike is only good for helping maintain traction when braking in a straight line.

By contrast, in a car it allows a driver to maintain traction to allow directional control under braking.

This comes from the Owner's Manual for the Honda CBR250RA (my bold for emphasis):

This model is also equipped with an Anti- lock Brake System (ABS) designed to help prevent wheel lock up during hard braking on uneven or other poor surfaces while running straight. Although the wheel may not lock up-if you are braking too hard in a turn the motorcycle can still lose traction, causing a loss of control.

pretbek 08-30-2013 08:07 PM

Not trying to be facetious, but how can your wife NOT imagine that gravel would make her slip, or that a motorcycle behaves differently from a car?
It seems she is running on autopilot or on undefeatable assumptions when riding, in stead of fully open to learning something new and rather demanding to do.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

viverrid 08-30-2013 08:09 PM

I don't know if she is going to keep riding her own bike. Seemed like she was really getting into it, zooming around and enjoying it. She was really enjoying riding.

She's done fine in the courses as they are repetitious exercises, they show you what to do first and then you and everyone else in the class repeats it. She does great in that but it seems like the infinite variations of the real world are too much.

I don't think it would have mattered if she was riding first or if I was first, if you brake & turn like that going from pavement to dirt, you are going to go down whether you are the 1st, 2nd or 15th rider. And this was only right up the road from where one of our kids lives. He lives on one dirt side road, this was a different dirt side road. He wasn't in town at the time but we left her bike at his house. The only bike damage was a scuff on her topcase. Didn't even break a turn signal or lever.

She wears her gear and has never had any significant speed in any of these dirt crashes, but somehow manages to get banged up once a year. OTOH though she has had stall/drops on pavement, she's never been injured there. Maybe she just needs to stay on pavement which would be too bad since she likes the wild and scenic dirt roads.

viverrid 08-30-2013 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pretbek (Post 22221343)
Not trying to be facetious, but how can your wife NOT imagine that gravel would make her slip, or that a motorcycle behaves differently from a car?

That was the other guy who reported his wife was surprised gravel made her bike slip.

We ride on dirt roads every ride. We used to live on a dirt road and our driveway was also dirt so couldn't ride unless we rode dirt.

But yes, I will agree that my wife isn't much for "technical" awareness (like most car drivers). She has said that riding a motorcycle has made her a much better car driver.


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