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-   -   No more BST! (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94272)

crankshaft 08-31-2005 10:21 AM
No more BST!
 
Ok, I finally decided to just take the plunge and inject my 640 ADV.
So far I've got a Megasquirt fuel injection computer, a few Audi injectors, a bunch of bosch connectors, a VW vanagon fuel pump and a nice new O2 sensor.
So far the missing link is a left side t-body from a BMW boxer bike (TPS sensor) that I need help finding.

After farting around with the carb I realized how much better the ADV would be if it had smooth consistent power all over the rev range, and at all altitudes. Worth documenting? Anyone else interested? If this works, maybe the next step is to turbo a 640e and make it a Super Duke eater? Ahh I love a good winter project.

Aaron

Loadedagain 08-31-2005 10:42 AM
here's a pic of one of my megasquirt setups... not even the slightest bit vibration proof. doesn't like heat, and is generally pretty finicky. i would advise against using one on a bike you want to ride on a regular basis. it's going to give you big headaches.

and that's from someone who has experience with them...

keep us posted on how it works. especially if it does work well.

for starters fill that thing with silicone or something to isolate the vibes.

http://loadedagain.smugmug.com/photos/10669952-M.jpg

crankshaft 08-31-2005 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loadedagain
here's a pic of one of my megasquirt setups... not even the slightest bit vibration proof. doesn't like heat, and is generally pretty finicky. i would advise against using one on a bike you want to ride on a regular basis. it's going to give you big headaches.

and that's from someone who has experience with them...

keep us posted on how it works. especially if it does work well.

for starters fill that thing with silicone or something to isolate the vibes.

http://loadedagain.smugmug.com/photos/10669952-M.jpg
Whats your experience with them? Done any swaps?

I've fuel injected(EFI)
3 Audi 4000Q turbo's with Simple Digital.
1 Audi 80tq with 034 efi system

and helped with one Audi 80tq SCCA rally car(20v turbo 400hp). If that box can take a beating from an open class rally car, than I'm sure it will be fine on the ADV. I also Ice raced every single one of those Audi's with 0 problems.

Aaron:evil

oh yea.... I forgot the 2 VW rabbit GTI's

markjenn 08-31-2005 10:50 AM
My guess would be that it will take an tremendous amount of work and luck to come close in performance to a well-jetted BST, let alone a well set up FCR. But my hats off to you for trying and it is definitely something I'd love to see documented.

- Mark

Loadedagain 08-31-2005 10:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crankshaft
Whats your experience with them? Done a bunch of swaps?
i've done a couple with the current board, but not an ms2 yet. might be something to try. it does look a little more vulnerable than the original, but... hey. i may be wrong.

have you looked at the "micro" squirt?

potatoho 08-31-2005 11:00 AM
What would really rock would be an ultrasonic nozzle system. Actually you could probably do it without a specialized nozzle. Have an ultrasonic bore. We were talking about that in another thread somewhere. Look at how the Glade Wisp air freshener uses ultrasonics.

crankshaft 08-31-2005 11:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loadedagain
i've done a couple with the current board, but not an ms2 yet. might be something to try. it does look a little more vulnerable than the original, but... hey. i may be wrong.

have you looked at the "micro" squirt?
Micro squirt? Hmmmm no I havent. I got the old system in a ttrade for some old Audi parts.

creeper 08-31-2005 11:17 AM
Looks like Loaded is your boy for DIY FI stuff cranky.

crankshaft 08-31-2005 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn
My guess would be that it will take an tremendous amount of work and luck to come close in performance to a well-jetted BST, let alone a well set up FCR. But my hats off to you for trying and it is definitely something I'd love to see documented.

- Mark
You really think so? If that was the case why can't you buy a 2006 Escalade with a Holley 750 DP? I know emisions right? How can a well jetted Carb compete with a well tuned EFI system with an 02 Sensor, and a map sensor?
No way. Think of what you'll need..... If I use a left side throttle body from a
BMW boxer bike, I've killed many birds with that one stone. TPS, Injector mounting,and throttle cable. So after that your left with Water temp sensor(drill and tap a water neck), fuel pump, and fuel lines(no big deal).
After that its wiring and weld a bung in the exhaust for the 02 sensor.
Oh yea, forgot the intake air temp sensor, that can be mounted in the airbox. The boxer t-body is pretty close to the same footprint as the old BST, but a tad longer.( silicon hump hoses from a speed shop).
I bet I'll pick up a few HP , and a bit of throttle response all over the range. After I injected my old CIS Audi, I noticed a huge difference just from the resistance from the old fuel dist.

crankshaft 08-31-2005 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by creeper
Looks like Loaded is your boy for DIY FI stuff cranky.
He thinks I'm out of my tree though..........

kellyk7 08-31-2005 11:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crankshaft
You really think so? If that was the case why can't you buy a 2006 Escalade with a Holley 750 DP? .
it has been my experiance that if you can define and box in the use of the vehicle I can tune a carb to do that as well or better then a FI, actually prefer the carter or Rochester carbs, done a few things with some webers as well, the Holley while very popular is not as tunable. with that said what a FI system gives you is a sort of tune on the fly thing, so many factors effect the fine tune of a fuel system, the factories have to hit something in the middle to be reliable and still meet requirments, it is why so many tuners tweak and one mans tweak is another mans nightmare. FI done right will tweaK on the fly if set up right.

as for filling that thing with silicone, if your really wanting to do that hit an electronics shop or mail order outlet and get "potting compound" it is that wierd hard gell stuff but can be removed if needed.

now my opinion, go for it , I am a natural tinkerer why rebuild stock when you can do something funky

crankshaft 08-31-2005 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellyk7
it has been my experiance that if you can define and box in the use of the vehicle I can tune a carb to do that as well or better then a FI, actually prefer the carter or Rochester carbs, done a few things with some webers as well, the Holley while very popular is not as tunable. with that said what a FI system gives you is a sort of tune on the fly thing, so many factors effect the fine tune of a fuel system, the factories have to hit something in the middle to be reliable and still meet requirments, it is why so many tuners tweak and one mans tweak is another mans nightmare. FI done right will tweaK on the fly if set up right.

as for filling that thing with silicone, if your really wanting to do that hit an electronics shop or mail order outlet and get "potting compound" it is that wierd hard gell stuff but can be removed if needed.

now my opinion, go for it , I am a natural tinkerer why rebuild stock when you can do something funky
Yea, I can't seem to stop tinkering. Is the potting compound purple in color, or colour for our canadian friend? I seem to recall seeing it in one of our ECU's. The inspiration for this project came from a Charlie at Function first motorsports. He makes some truly amazing stuff, and rarely leaves well enough alone. He recently finished a Hyabusa turbo powered tube frame hillclimber. Check out his site at.....
http://www.ffmsd.com/
Thankfully I'll have access to his services during the project.

Aaron

markjenn 08-31-2005 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crankshaft
How can a well jetted Carb compete with a well tuned EFI system with an 02 Sensor, and a map sensor?
Believe me, I'm a believer that FI is better than carbs too (the 950 is off my wish list until the FI version appears), but the key words in your sentence above is "well tuned".

Maybe this FI stuff is more plug-n-play that I think, but my understanding is that it takes a fair amount of work to rig a system with all the sensors working properly, and then develop a reasonable fuel map for a given application. The whole thing reminds me of someone disliking Microsoft Windows and deciding that want to write their own OS. It's just a bunch of drivers, a disk manager, a memory manager, and UI right? Well, in concept, that's true, but the devil is in the details. And to continue the analogy, if you don't like the BST, then the FCR might be the Linux you're looking for.

You should understand that, either due to luck or my low demands/expectations, I have zero complaints about my BST. It seems to carb perfectly for me in all temps and elevations up to 6K feet or so. So I don't see much of a problem that needs solving. But I don't attempt to loft the front end over 8" logs going up hills dodging typerwriter-sized rocks either. It's my adventure bike, not my dirt bike.

Again, I think this is a very cool project and so I don't mean to discourage you. If you like to tinker with this sort of thing, that's extremely cool and I'll be highly interested how it goes. But if you just want a 640 that works better, I think you could get to that goal a LOT cheaper and faster by buying a FCR kit and fiddling with jetting - there is a broad range of experience with FCR setup on our bikes.

- Mark

crankshaft 08-31-2005 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn
Believe me, I'm a believer that FI is better than carbs too (the 950 is off my wish list until the FI version appears), but the key words in your sentence above is "well tuned".

Maybe this FI stuff is more plug-n-play that I think, but my understanding is that it takes a fair amount of work to rig a system with all the sensors working properly, and then develop a reasonable fuel map for a given application. The whole thing reminds me of someone disliking Microsoft Windows and deciding that want to write their own OS. It's just a bunch of drivers, a disk manager, a memory manager, and UI right? Well, in concept, that's true, but the devil is in the details. And to continue the analogy, if you don't like the BST, then the FCR might be the Linux you're looking for.

You should understand that, either due to luck or my low demands/expectations, I have zero complaints about my BST. It seems to carb perfectly for me in all temps and elevations up to 6K feet or so. So I don't see much of a problem that needs solving. But I don't attempt to loft the front end over 8" logs going up hills dodging typerwriter-sized rocks either. It's my adventure bike, not my dirt bike.

Again, I think this is a very cool project and so I don't mean to discourage you. If you like to tinker with this sort of thing, that's extremely cool and I'll be highly interested how it goes. But if you just want a 640 that works better, I think you could get to that goal a LOT cheaper and faster by buying a FCR kit and fiddling with jetting - there is a broad range of experience with FCR setup on our bikes.

- Mark
I actually thought about the FCR, but I thought I might give the EFI thing a try. Comparing the BST to Windows, and the Megasquirt to writing a new OS is a bit overkill, but maybe your a computer guy? Personally I ditched Windows and got a Mac,but again tough comparison. The reality is that it seems like a fun project. As far as doing it cheaper, well I think $400 is a good estimate for the time being, but I will keep track for the fun of it.
What would you expect to spend on a FCR used? $150? Worst case, the bike runs like crap, and I put the BST back on.... no big deal. Best case is that I gain a few HP in spot that was lacking, and maybe pick up a mile per gallon. The BST is working fine after the re-jet and slide drilling(Thanks Creeper),but I'm in need of a project.
The VT winters get pretty long, so I'll just call it entertainment.


http://www.sdsefi.com/tech.html

Lots of great No Bull answers to common EFI questions if your interested

Loadedagain 08-31-2005 01:11 PM
i'm at work right now and a little slammed so i can't reply in too much detail... i'll try once home.

yes i've used potting coumpound. none purple and maybe that's the problem. i fin the stuff is absolutely horrible to get off. all gooey like. even silicone is easier to remove... and that says something. one option is non conformal sealer also.

i have done a number of fuel injection conversions over the year using motec, haltec, holley tbi, and one electromotive. i am in no way trying to disuade you. if you have a strong electrical and injection background (which from the sound of it you do)... i say go for it!

know the limits of the system. speed density systems like megasquirt do require a fair amount of pre-tuning to get going, and also require a certain amount of maintenance to keep alive.

when running well the injection will knock the pants off any carb. hands down.

post loads of pics and info as you go.


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