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390beretta 01-17-2014 03:04 PM

A question I've always wondered about (riding technique)
 
I've taken two MSF riding courses. In both the instructors insisted on pulling in the clutch during an "emergency stop". (someone turns left in front of you, pulls out in front of you, etc) This has never made much sense to me because it would seem that allowing the engine to provide additional braking on the rear tire would be helpful, assuming the throttle is shut down of course.

What am I missing here? By the way, I've ridden for many years and have not followed their advice on the few occasions when I've been in need of a quick stop; also, I do practice emergency braking.....a couple times a year, probably not enough, but I push it until my front tire is "chirping" and my rear is not locked up. I ride a K75, non-ABS. Thanks

The Jerk 01-17-2014 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 390beretta (Post 23248624)
I've taken two MSF riding courses. In both the instructors insisted on pulling in the clutch during an "emergency stop". (someone turns left in front of you, pulls out in front of you, etc) This has never made much sense to me because it would seem that allowing the engine to provide additional braking on the rear tire would be helpful, assuming the throttle is shut down of course.

What am I missing here? By the way, I've ridden for many years and have not followed their advice on the few occasions when I've been in need of a quick stop; also, I do practice emergency braking.....a couple times a year, probably not enough, but I push it until my front tire is "chirping" and my rear is not locked up. I ride a K75, non-ABS. Thanks

In a true emergency stop you are either going to be locking the rear or coming damn close due to weight transfer to the front. If the rear is already at or near its traction limit, then engine braking is out of the equation.

What pulling in the clutch does is keep you from stalling if you actually do have to come to a stop while also allowing you the ability to click down a couple gears and get back on the throttle in a hurry if the guy behind you wasn't paying attention to your emergency stop. Nothing sucks like needing to be hard on the throttle only to find you're in 6th at 15 mph.

Earth Rider 01-17-2014 03:18 PM

The quick stop is designed to not only stop you fast but get you into first gear with the clutch in so you're not stuck there stalled if something else is about to happen.

390beretta 01-17-2014 03:24 PM

Actually, you've both given me a new perspective. Thanks

However, in none of the classes was it mentioned that one should also be shifting down during the braking process.?? Perhaps just bad classes? Don't know. Also, if the rear tire is locked up, might be difficult to shift down effectively, just askin' , not trying to start a debate. Thanks again.

Earth Rider 01-17-2014 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 390beretta (Post 23248801)
Actually, you've both given me a new perspective. Thanks

However, in none of the classes was it mentioned that one should also be shifting down during the braking process.?? Perhaps just bad classes? Don't know. Also, if the rear tire is locked up, might be difficult to shift down effectively, just askin' , not trying to start a debate. Thanks again.

Sounds like bad teaching. You lose points for not ending up in first in the MSF class here during the licensing test. I know because I ended up in neutral. The point is getting you ready to take off again.

I don't think the rear tire being locked would matter with the clutch pulled.

lnewqban 01-17-2014 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 390beretta (Post 23248624)
...........What am I missing here?............

You are missing the rotational inertia of the engine.

If the braking is quick enough, your engine may be fighting your brakes during the time it takes for rpms to drop down to close to idle.

If the braking is less than an emergency, engine braking is effective, especially for slippery conditions, as the braking effect is pneumatic (more "cushion") rather than mechanic-hydraulic.

The other reason, as well explained in previous post, is to be ready to resume movement as needed, in the proper gear (yes, you should downshift during the emergency stop if you can) and with the engine on.

It is spelled in the MSF Basic Course handbook; check Unit 3 - page 23:
http://msf-usa.org/CurriculumMateria...ndbook2011.pdf

scootrboi 01-17-2014 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 390beretta (Post 23248801)
Actually, you've both given me a new perspective. Thanks

However, in none of the classes was it mentioned that one should also be shifting down during the braking process.?? Perhaps just bad classes? Don't know. Also, if the rear tire is locked up, might be difficult to shift down effectively, just askin' , not trying to start a debate. Thanks again.

Disc brakes must be great.:clap

390beretta 01-17-2014 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootrboi (Post 23248975)
Disc brakes must be great.:clap

Yes, my friend, they certainly are....but I only have them on the front. My bike just turned 26 years old:D But, I still love her:evil

motorat 01-17-2014 03:53 PM

you approach the stopping area in second gear.
when you front tire crosses the que cone you are to stop in the shortest distance you safely can downshifting to first during the stop.

by leaving the clutch in there is one less thing you have to worry about so you can concentrate on the stop and downshift. if you do a compresstion stop(downshift) and still stop within standard for your speed you won't be assessed any points.

i like to tell my students that on the street if you have to do a quick stop you want to be ready to get out of the area incase the car behind you cannot stop in tme or is not paying attention. so make sure you check your mirrors when you stop and always have an escape route planned. downshifting will get your motorcycle ready for a quick escape.

390beretta 01-17-2014 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motorat (Post 23249039)
you approach the stopping area in second gear.
when you front tire crosses the que cone you are to stop in the shortest distance you safely can downshifting to first during the stop.

by leaving the clutch in there is one less thing you have to worry about so you can concentrate on the stop and downshift. if you do a compresstion stop(downshift) and still stop within standard for your speed you won't be assessed any points.

i like to tell my students that on the street if you have to do a quick stop you want to be ready to get out of the area incase the car behind you cannot stop in tme or is not paying attention. so make sure you check your mirrors when you stop and always have an escape route planned. downshifting will get your motorcycle ready for a quick escape.

Yes, I always do that when coming to a stop (at a light, etc.) (check my mirrors and have an escape route in case someone is not stopping behind me) I do downshift to first when stopping at a light, always in 1st. gear and watching my mirrors, in case someone is goofing off, high, on the phone, etc. However, I was more asking about an emergency stop. Thanks

DC2wheels 01-17-2014 04:20 PM

Older BMW ABS- K100RS4V.

Something comes out in front of me real fast?

Off the throttle and both hands are squeezing HARD. I am standing the thing on its nose. Very little weight on the rear tire- don't think additional engine braking is a factor at all.

390beretta 01-17-2014 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DC2wheels (Post 23249229)
Older BMW ABS- K100RS4V.

Something comes out in front of me real fast?

Off the throttle and both hands are squeezing HARD. I am standing the thing on its nose. Very little weight on the rear tire- don't think additional engine braking is a factor at all.

Thanks, I'm guessing my reaction would be the same.

Import 01-17-2014 05:04 PM

Interesting.... Back when I was instructing in the uk, if you pulled the clutch or attempted to change gear, you automatically failed the test... The powers that be reconed that the only important thing is to stop....engine braking helps.....concentrate on that...
I wonder if ten years later that's changed..have to say that I still practise regularly, and never clutch in..

390beretta 01-17-2014 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Import (Post 23249562)
Interesting.... Back when I was instructing in the uk, if you pulled the clutch or attempted to change gear, you automatically failed the test... The powers that be reconed that the only important thing is to stop....engine braking helps.....concentrate on that...
I wonder if ten years later that's changed..have to say that I still practise regularly, and never clutch in..

I'd like to know that as well....seems we have similar questions.

Pantah 01-17-2014 05:31 PM

When I need to stop fast, I almost always end up with the clutch pulled and the bike it too high a gear. But at least she is running. Thankfully, I don't have many panic stops and most of those are on dirt. I have to agree that usually the priority is to simply get stopped or slowed enough.


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