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-   -   the bike just wouldn't make the turn.... (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=949784)

Andyvh1959 01-25-2014 06:45 AM

the bike just wouldn't make the turn....
 
I've heard that on occassion, even had a few riders ask me about cornering and why their bike "wouldn't make the turn". This came up again at the BMW shop where I work part time. I was cleaning up a K1300GT that had obviously taken a ride through the tall weeds into a field. According to the shop owner, the rider had said it wouldn't make the turn. When he described where it happened, I said "that is no brainer turn at 60, could probably easily do it well over that."

Shop owner said, "if the pegs or some other part aren't dragging through the turn, the bike WILL make the turn." True, as long as the road is clean, decent tires, as long as the rider has some ability, the bike WILL easily make it. The rider chooses NOT to make it, by actual choice, or by brain fart, or by panic/freeze mode on the grips. Probably expains a lot of those left laners on the Dragon, same for the ones photographed off into the trees.

anotherguy 01-25-2014 06:57 AM

I remember the first time on a real racetrack how surprised I was at the effort needed to turn an otherwise easy handling motorcycle at high speeds. It is alarming.

PirateJohn 01-25-2014 07:20 AM

We had an accident along those lines with the vintage motorcycle club of which I eventually became el Presidente. Moral of the story the ride leader on that ride began preaching countersteering. Try it. It takes some practice, but in an emergency situation you can firmly control that bike to the point where the pegs or the cylinder heads (in the case of a BMW) are on the ground.

Foot dragger 01-25-2014 07:26 AM

Practicing counter steering,the only way a bike turns is counter steering.
Guys just dont know they're doing it.

I think if riders never push all that hard on corners to get a feel for what going fast is like,when a corner does come up too fast they freeze up and off the road they go. Corners are the fun part but only if ridecraft is up and working.

It can almost always be saved,but once the eyes are looking somewhere besides around the corner its over,better be some soft dirt.

Jim Moore 01-25-2014 07:45 AM

Turn your head, look where you want to go, press on the handgrip. The MSF is right.

Kommando 01-25-2014 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andyvh1959 (Post 23306717)
I've heard that on occassion, even had a few riders ask me about cornering and why their bike "wouldn't make the turn". This came up again at the BMW shop where I work part time. I was cleaning up a K1300GT that had obviously taken a ride through the tall weeds into a field. According to the shop owner, the rider had said it wouldn't make the turn. When he described where it happened, I said "that is no brainer turn at 60, could probably easily do it well over that."

Shop owner said, "if the pegs or some other part aren't dragging through the turn, the bike WILL make the turn." True, as long as the road is clean, decent tires, as long as the rider has some ability, the bike WILL easily make it. The rider chooses NOT to make it, by actual choice, or by brain fart, or by panic/freeze mode on the grips. Probably expains a lot of those left laners on the Dragon, same for the ones photographed off into the trees.

I'm glad you mentioned the road being clean and decent tires. I've had a front knobby let go on the pavement, and I didn't feel like I was even pushing it that hard. I was able to save it, but I can definitely see how a bike possibly wouldn't make a turn if traction let go or hard parts dragged.

andykeck 01-25-2014 10:08 AM

I would also suspect that this rider had a problem with his outside arm fighting what his inside arm is doing. I don't know if it's a psychological thing or simply natural muscle tension, but my riding got so much better when I started to concentrate on keeping my outside arm 'loose' while turning. It was like getting an all-new, much sportier bike when I learned that trick.

Wingfixer 01-25-2014 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Moore (Post 23307054)
Turn your head, look where you want to go, press on the handgrip. The MSF is right.

Yup!
:eyes

Falconx84 01-25-2014 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andykeck (Post 23307908)
I would also suspect that this rider had a problem with his outside arm fighting what his inside arm is doing. I don't know if it's a psychological thing or simply natural muscle tension, but my riding got so much better when I started to concentrate on keeping my outside arm 'loose' while turning. It was like getting an all-new, much sportier bike when I learned that trick.

^^ this... Identical experience, written more clearly with less words than I was going to

trc.rhubarb 01-25-2014 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andykeck (Post 23307908)
I would also suspect that this rider had a problem with his outside arm fighting what his inside arm is doing. I don't know if it's a psychological thing or simply natural muscle tension, but my riding got so much better when I started to concentrate on keeping my outside arm 'loose' while turning. It was like getting an all-new, much sportier bike when I learned that trick.

For sure, especially if he got nervous and tensed up. he may have also been focusing on slowing down rather than turning. I had a friend do that and by the time he realized he better turn, it was too late. Even dragging hard parts, as long as they pivot out of the way it should be no problem.

Is there a 'fog line' on that corner? I know a lot of people use the fog line to focus on as they go around the curve... no line and some people find something else to stare at. Sometimes it's a fixed point as in, don't hit the tree, watch out for the tree, don't hit the... oh shit! :eek1

bwringer 01-25-2014 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andykeck (Post 23307908)
I would also suspect that this rider had a problem with his outside arm fighting what his inside arm is doing. I don't know if it's a psychological thing or simply natural muscle tension, but my riding got so much better when I started to concentrate on keeping my outside arm 'loose' while turning. It was like getting an all-new, much sportier bike when I learned that trick.

Airplane pilots are subject to a similar phenomenon when they get disoriented, sometimes called the "Giant Hand" phenomenon. They describe a feeling like a giant hand is opposing their intended control inputs.

This is one of the things that can happen to motorcyclists who suddenly find themselves far outside their experience. Our monkey brains aren't born with the equipment to respond correctly to the unnatural or artificial sensory inputs of motorcycling. Unless a rider has deliberately learned and practiced the correct reactions, our built-in monkey reflexes (bodily reactions to "falling", flinching away from perceived danger, visually fixating on danger, etc.) will take over.

For the complete explanation, look up the term "survival reactions" in the "Twist of the Wrist" books from Keith Code.

PT Rider 01-25-2014 11:15 AM

Quote:

Practicing counter steering,the only way a bike turns is counter steering.
Not exactly. Countersteering is the way to handle the centrifugal forces of the turn. The bike doesn't have to lean to turn, but it must lean to handle the centrifugal force.

The poor alternative is for the rider to shift body weight to the inside of the turn direction to handle limited centrifugal force (not hanging off, but an unconscious shoulder lean), then steer the bike around the turn. This works but is very limiting. This is one good reason why, "the bike can't make the turn." This is one case where the arms are trying to wrestle the bike around the turn, and it just won't go and maintain balance.

A less poor alternative is to do the usual hidden countersteer where upper body movements push the arms for a secret countersteer--which the rider vehemently denies, 'cuz everybody knows you can't turn left by steering right!

And, of course, the correct way where the bike is steered the "wrong" way to make it lean, then the front wheel drops into the turn to actually get the bike turning for the curve--after the bike is steered right for a left turn and leans to the left, the front wheel turns to the left to make the turn. It is so empowering to feel for the first time tightening the turn radius by pushing forward on the inside grip.

Tim McKittrick 01-25-2014 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anotherguy (Post 23306774)
I remember the first time on a real racetrack how surprised I was at the effort needed to turn an otherwise easy handling motorcycle at high speeds. It is alarming.

I concur- on our track the first turn at the end of the back straight can be entered at about 130 mph- it's a left flick followed by a right and you scrub speed as you enter but don't brake. Do it correctly and you are set up for the next left. It takes all of my strength to muscle my Honda RS250 through those turns at pace, and that's a machine that only weighs 250 pounds. I apply enough countersteering force that the handgrips (renthal soft) wear out each season as do the palms of my gloves.

PirateJohn 01-25-2014 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim McKittrick (Post 23308506)
I concur- on our track the first turn at the end of the back straight can be entered at about 130 mph- it's a left flick followed by a right and you scrub speed as you enter but don't brake. Do it correctly and you are set up for the next left. It takes all of my strength to muscle my Honda RS250 through those turns at pace, and that's a machine that only weighs 250 pounds. I apply enough countersteering force that the handgrips (renthal soft) wear out each season as do the palms of my gloves.


Yup. I found that I could switch between countersteering and "conventional" riding pretty easily, but at the end of a long trip on a bike with relatively narrow handlebars my arms and shoulders would be dead tired. Much easier to countersteer a big GS BMW than a K1100RS or a K100RS, which originally had some seriously narrow bars fitted.

healeyblue 01-25-2014 12:40 PM

Target fixation
 
In almost every case I have known, of a bike not "turning", the rider had target fixation. He looked where he didn't want to go rather than where he wanted to go. Had he done everything right the bike would have low sided.


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