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-   -   It's the Offseason....Let's talk about Advanced Topics like Trail Braking (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=951240)

Thanantos 01-31-2014 12:05 AM

It's the Offseason....Let's talk about Advanced Topics like Trail Braking
 
A recent post here reminded me of an interesting discussion I have had with riding buddies who are die hard Keith Code proponents...Trail Braking.

Here is Keith's recommendations for racers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrbZJbXwgrY

I'm not saying I'm right here, I'm only arguing that my approach will keep me on the pavement yet not necessarily give me the fastest lap time.

I like Keith Code a lot and buy into the smooth is fast argument (IMHO, that's just basic physics). What I don't buy into is the argument his followers espouse of staying off the rear brake no matter the situation.

I can see how Keith's explanation would work for track riders working for the best lap time. "If you're entering a corner too hot, slip the front brake and downshift to engine brake and slow the rear so you stay in a gear appropriate to your speed and can exit that corner safely, but with the most speed possible."

My problem with that in the EXTREMES OF TRACTION is I have less control engine braking than I do using my actual brakes.

My REAL WORLD application of this differs for on road riders (not track riders). If presented with this situation (as this flat-road midwestern rider was last year riding in NC and Kentucky) I would/did use the front AND rear to slow the bike and worry about the correct gear later. My theory being that the application of both keeps the bike stable on it's suspension but allows for more braking forces applied before that sharper than expected corner.

I would still downshift so I was in a very ROUGHLY appropriate gear, but I would not engage the clutch as to avoid additional traction loss to the rear tire.

My question for you is: "Why am I wrong?"

EDIT: And hit me with it! I've been an idiot for almost 40 years so I'm used to the abuse!

car94 01-31-2014 08:06 AM

Just bought the new KTM 1190R my MSC takes care of that for me!
Next topic, Does MSC really stabilize the Motorcycle in a lean well enough to prevent a low side or does the traction control work well enough to prevent a High side?:deal

randyo 01-31-2014 10:03 AM

Off season ?

full throttle

Wraith Rider 01-31-2014 10:01 PM

I always use both brakes - one exception: When the brake pads of one are used up and I need some more miles to the nnext service.

I fully agree with you that one has better control with the brake than the engine/clutch (and it's no problem to shift down without using engine braking).

But maybe I should mention: I'm not riding a race bike but a sport tourer. So it's NECESSARY for to use both brakes for maximum braking. Therefore there's no discussion to me if I should use both brakes.

JohnCW 02-01-2014 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanantos (Post 23355244)
A recent post here reminded me of an interesting discussion I have had with riding buddies who are die hard Keith Code proponents...Trail Braking.

Here is Keith's recommendations for racers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrbZJbXwgrY

I couldn't actually understand the what the video was actually getting at. Like what is the recommendation (a) have smooth correct downshifts approaching a corner, and (b) be comfortable carrying some speed under brakes into the corner?

I watched it twice and that's all I was able to get from it, which to me is pretty basic stuff. Perhaps I'm missing something important so if someone would enlighten me it'd be appreciated.

trc.rhubarb 02-01-2014 09:31 AM

What's an offseason? :lol3

I find trail braking works really well for my Harley and use it to settle the bike since it has a mushy front end. Done correctly (I have my days) I can carry a lot higher corner speed without much drama than I can by just slowing some. Being in the bikes powerband seems a given to maintain the suspension load and prevent wallowing, as well as being able to fine tune speed and line corrections in the corner.

I've tuned in some overrun on the HD and the R90 is carbed so it has it naturally which let's me be a bit smoother when doing making throttle adjustments mid-corner. On the big BMW and Duc, they have no overrun and the throttle is much more sensitive to accidental closures. Luckily both of those bikes can corner faster than I can, so I just hang on if I'm in too hot but can lightly modulate with the rear brake.

Aj Mick 02-02-2014 11:31 AM

Intercourse champions.
 
Been riding since the mid '60s, without any education beyond the School of Hard Knocks (graduating in Common Sense in fairly short order)

I'm pretty new to these forums. I keep on coming across these new terms like "encounter steering" and now "trail biking", along with a whole Alphabet Soup of courses and such ATGATT, MSF, CBT, ABS, and so on. Ya'll must be intercourse champions.

Colorado_Rider 02-02-2014 11:37 AM

I don't like keith code at all. His philosophy of getting on the gas long before the apex spoiles all the fun.

Colorado_Rider 02-02-2014 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trc.rhubarb (Post 23365236)
What's an offseason? :lol3

I find trail braking works really well for my Harley and use it to settle the bike since it has a mushy front end. Done correctly (I have my days) I can carry a lot higher corner speed without much drama than I can by just slowing some. Being in the bikes powerband seems a given to maintain the suspension load and prevent wallowing, as well as being able to fine tune speed and line corrections in the corner.

I've tuned in some overrun on the HD and the R90 is carbed so it has it naturally which let's me be a bit smoother when doing making throttle adjustments mid-corner. On the big BMW and Duc, they have no overrun and the throttle is much more sensitive to accidental closures. Luckily both of those bikes can corner faster than I can, so I just hang on if I'm in too hot but can lightly modulate with the rear brake.

You said "harley" and "corner speed" in the same paragraph :rofl

joexr 02-02-2014 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado_Rider (Post 23373136)
You said "harley" and "corner speed" in the same paragraph :rofl

:lol3

JohnCW 02-02-2014 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnCW (Post 23363432)
I couldn't actually understand the what the video was actually getting at. Like what is the recommendation (a) have smooth correct downshifts approaching a corner, and (b) be comfortable carrying some speed under brakes into the corner?

I watched it twice and that's all I was able to get from it, which to me is pretty basic stuff. Perhaps I'm missing something important so if someone would enlighten me it'd be appreciated.

I'll answer my own question. After I wrote the above I had a chance to watch Keith Code's a Twist of the Wrist video. Every YouTube video I've seen is just a piece edited from this video.

I've never liked the YouTube cuts because they seem so out of context or something. But if you watch the whole video, which is about three times as long as it needs to be, totally cheesy, and a whole lot of self promotion, at least each of the individual ideas make more sense.

Now that I know what the term "trail braking" means, about my only thoughts are who doesn't ease of but still carry some braking going into a high speed corner?

trc.rhubarb 02-02-2014 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado_Rider (Post 23373136)
You said "harley" and "corner speed" in the same paragraph :rofl

Meh, let's not turn this into another Harley bashing thread. There are enough already.

joexr 02-02-2014 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trc.rhubarb (Post 23373964)
Meh, let's not turn this into another Harley bashing thread. There are enough already.

You're absolutely right. It's too damn easy.:lol3

Colorado_Rider 02-02-2014 02:53 PM

grrr...must...resist...saying...something...bad... about...girly men...and .... thier.... ... .HARLEYS!!!! AAAHHHHhhh can't help it!!!!!

Thanantos 02-03-2014 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnCW (Post 23373823)
Now that I know what the term "trail braking" means, about my only thoughts are who doesn't ease of but still carry some braking going into a high speed corner?

Well, I don't know. That's why I asked.

I'm trying to find a safe, comfortable medium between MSF's "Never Touch The Brakes In A Corner Or God Will Kill Puppies!" and Keith's "Never Touch The Rear Brake Ever, Use The Engine!"

MSF's approach is the right one for n00b's and Keith's is probably right for track racers. I'm neither. I'm just a guy who likes to ride hard as safely as possible.

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