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Old 04-06-2013, 09:24 AM   #156
Anders Green OP
NASA Rally Sport
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Joined: Jan 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC
Oddometer: 2,066

Originally Posted by az45 View Post
I would also like to ask how you seem to manage to be getting younger and better looking with age?
It's impressive, right? I use this cream from China!

The rules are written for a 202 class, the racers who have never done a rally event need it written for a 101 class.
Unfortunately, the rules can't be written for a 101 class. That would be like trying to craft laws, or write an engineering manual, using only words with five or fewer letters. And actually, the 101 class wouldn't cover timing, because one can't understand the timing without knowing other fundamentals of the sport. Actually, for the other rally group I work with, I wrote a whole series of "courses", and timing doesn't show up till the 300 level.

I asked you a direct question with an example and you gave two answers in the same sentence.
Double your money's worth!

After being clueless in 2011 after your long explanation on how timing worked at the drivers meeting. As I recall Mark McMillin stood up and tried to re-explain the basics. In 2012 I managed to get it figured out and not get any penalties because of my ignorance, but one for a late car repair.
I wasn't there in 2011, and I've never even been on stage at the driver's meeting, so I think you might have me confused with someone else.

You refer to a “card”, but unless something has changed, there is no card.
Nothing has changed. There absolutely is a card. The card is in your road book.

The “card’ is the timing sticker on the hood in my case.
No, the card is a card in your case. The first backup is the sticker on the hood. The second backup is the digital picture of the sticker. The third backup is the paper log kept by the volunteers.

Do bikes have actual cards?

In a car, you can’t see the timing sticker on the hood, so I use a stopwatch.
I'd recommend using a watch instead of a stopwatch, and referencing the card.

Can I get a card
You can't NOT get a card.

and have the control workers write my times on it?
Yes, they'll write on it.

Also staging for your start time seems to be a little confusing because when you show up in a car it’s a bit of a C-F with no one really checking you in. As long as you’re visible when you are pointed in line, you seem to be fine.
One shouldn't expect to be (and see, here's where the particular terminology used for this rally, and the alternate meaning it has here in this conversation, become a problem.) "checked in" (and in this sense I'm using the phrase as you intended it in your paragraph but NOT in the sense of the rules). There is no "check in" time control, so there is no "checking in". Most other rallies have an additional time control that tracks only arrival (so now I'm talking about two timing controls for the start, instead of one like NORRA is using) and at those rallies this serves as both the "check in" and the check in. (One in the rules sense and one in the sense that you mean.)

Is that different this year?
I expect the operation of the start controls to be very similar to what they were before.

Your explanation of this to Baja Dad is not real clear. “Maybe. Maybe more, or a lot more, or maybe nothing. 10.1 doesn't guarantee penalties.”
The question posed by Baja Dada was taking one particular situation and then asking if the most generalized penalty rule in the book, the singe rule whose entire design is to allow the organization to handle unforeseen surprise circumstances, the rule that exists as a safety valve and fall back, and asking if that rule applied to the core of the timing penalties, an area where I have never seen this penalty applied. That does not mean that it couldn't be applied there. So the correct answer to the question, as you saw, is exactly that, unclear. Everything would depend on the situation. It's like asking "Can you get the death penalty for 1 MPH over the speed limit?"

As far as start order, it seems a little ambiguous.
What's the 'it' in this case? There are two start order methods discussed in the rules, one for the start of the rally, one for all the days following that.

So if I get a flat tire that adds 10 minutes to my time I can do some paperwork that will move me up in the start order?
You can always submit an inquiry and request a move. It may or may not be granted by the Race Director (which isn't me). For this particular example, I would expect that it would not.

I can show up with my race resume and it may move me ahead in the start order(or back!)?
No, your race resume is not considered for the start of the rally (which is the only place it would make sense) it's strictly by class, then by the time you signed up.

Where do I get the paperwork to fill out to protest my start position
I usually have some inquiry forms with me.

and will it be reviewed within the 3 hours of published starts?
You mean if there is a start at 9am and you submit something between 6am and 8:59am? There would not be time to do that. Like, literally, the computers and printers could already be flying off to the next city.

If I dumb this down for the lazy car racers, is it the fastest time starts first
The short, but unhelpful, but still correct, answer to this question is no. This particular question cannot be answered in a dumbed down way as it involves statistics and math.

Why not go off of the OA race position
Because the goal of the start order, in general is to make for the safest and best racing conditions for each racer, not to provide a scoreboard.

so you know where you stand in the race?
You know where you stand by reviewing the results that are printed out.

Should a car/bike that is shown on the posted time sheets that is an hour behind ever start in front of you?

This leads me to believe that you are looking at a different time sheet than posted?
See 9.5. It's the speeds, not the times, that are used.

Doesn’t a NORRA official line you up?
Generally, yes.

If so, how is it possible to start out of sequence?
If you sleep in, and were supposed to start 10th on the road, and get there when everybody except the last car is gone... yes, you will be waved up to the start by an official, but you are completely out of sequence. You'd be 120th when you were supposed to be 10th.

I’m not a rally guy and I’m a bit of a left brainer, but I’ve managed to get through life be reading directions and listening. I’m going to tell you again, “with all due respect” , that your explanations are not real clear to non-rally folk.
Is this like the part that's in the Geneva Convention? *grin*

The difficult part is, and this is really the bottom line, is that rally is complicated. The whole structure of the event has complexities that are inherent to the nature of this type of racing and the political, legal, and racing realities that we operate in. There's no way to take that out. Ok, well, you can take all the complexities out... but you end up with this:

If everything you are trying to explain is SOP in other rallies, you should remember that the car guys are not going to automatically understand it.
Actually, in my usual world, it's the car guys who know everything about rally and the bike guys who are the newbs. I usually teach a class on these topics that takes about 2.5 hours, and we have those guys take that class three times.

Holy crap that's a long post!

Anyway, after all that typing, you owe me a beer. Come over to the Rally Clinic on Saturday before the driver's meeting to deliver, and we'll talk about all this stuff some more.

[NORRA Mexican 1000 Scoring Chief] [Organizer of Sandblast Rally / Black River Stages / NASA Rally Sport RallyMoto]
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