Originally Posted by dhubbard422
And to think that this thread started off by asking - where are the Nat'l riders? This might have been an interesting topic. As a former Nat'l (event) organizer, pro level minder and support rider, I have been surprised by the attendance levels at recent Nat'ls.
The pics of the terrain at the AZ Nat'l look amazing and appear to be much prettier than the AZ National I rode a few years ago near the petrified forest. It's unfortunate that more were not able to participate in this event.
Personally, I stopped riding Nat'ls, in large part, because the Support class presented too much risk for my skill and age.
Regarding the digression that this thread took... the top National classes do not necessarily correspond to local classes. Most local clubs would consider themselves lucky to have a single Nat'l Pro or Nat'l Expert level rider and to build a line for Pro would be to build a line for one rider. The Nat'ls are the opportunity for those top riders to compete against others with similar skills - something that they can not usually do at the Local level.
Expert is a class for "old" Pros that want to step down or for future Pros that are not quite ready to step up to Pro. All of the other classes are basically there to allow the National event to succeed on a financial level, i.e. it's financially challenging to host an event for a few (1-2 dozen) Pro and Expert level riders. I believe that the addition of the Clubman class was, in part, to help shore up flagging attendance and maintain revenue...
it is sad that this thread became a vehicle for personal attacks. The personal attacks are not helpful in the least and they are, IMO, very misplaced and completely inappropriate. Please stop.
Probably the best information I have read, even if is still doesn't address the fact of "the rest of us" down in the "flights" aka Skill levels, where riders should be expecting, and all that... Again, I said the top 2 tiers take care of themselves, the NATC took the easy/at the time obvious, way out long ago. I assume they just thought and was assuming there would be 100's of competitors chomping at the bit for a "class for them." and would toss money into the jar... it did for a while, there are a HELLUVA lot more people that think EXACTLY like NWCYCLE, so like I tried to say, I was not attacking him, EVER. or anything, my goal was to give information that might otherwise leave people dissapointed and all that.
so, here we are. For the lower classes, which IMHO unless the whole "nationals" is SUDDENLY "sponsored by Toyota" last I heard it was NOT... then there HAS to be, some more thought put into the lower classes & competiton structure as a whole. Stupid as not realizing where your target audience is. The lower riders that attend NOW, is the the "bread and butter"
for the hosting clubs. This is what will keep the PRO's a place to compets and all that, IMHO. SInce it is Where most of the riders, across the USA are riding in their clubs. These are the guys, that have the money, and ability to attend a trials that isn't in their backyard, let alone a nationals. Lots has change economy wise and family dynamics wise let alone competition wise, for modern trials.
Competition drives 96% of the sport of trials, I believe, even everyone that is NOT a pro. in fact I think every class up to PRO is even more driven, in the fact that we dont get paid a dime, we pay for everything we do, not that the TOP riders shouldn't!!!! But I mean this in a way, for example... I'm 120 miles from my club, I could ride the backyard (and do) every night I want to, but I choose to goto the club events to test myself against the riders I beat or get beat by each month.
I think, at some point, the same has to be said for the nationals. now sure, "technically" since it is "me" against the "trials master" technically... It is, but what I am saying is different. There is still more to it. I reiterate, I will not spend $1000 to enter an event where the outcome is obvious to me, where I myself will be competing against Dustin Land, Marc Carpenter, and those top riders from my area. IF I wanted to enter the MASTER CLASS at my club, even if the masters would RIDE MY SECTIONS (intermediate) the outcome is ordained, if they even show up (or hell ordained if they DON'T show up). Now if I ride against Mike Cramsey, and those guys I usually ride with, the outcome is more than flip of the coin, nor Ordained.
That is the "forgot" about part of the nationals, because the comitee or whomever was more about the PRO-Expert-what have you, with us "also rans" only asked to show up, to "sponser" the costs of putting this whole thing on. But they also know it won't survive without the rest of us going, or top paid sponsor-ships, whish drives up even local trials costs, due to COSTS. Goodyear sells tires at DOUBLE the cost of cheaper barnds, becuase of all the crap they sponsor supposedly sells more tires, I beg you if goodyear dropped the price of the tires by half, I'd but a set all the time. This is the economy nowdays. now Redbull? that is the opposite, they sponsor everything because they have figured out that since $.05 cents of water and sugar and crap in a can, sold for 3 bucks, they can buy anything they want to, and they do, because our kids will buy it by the case, lol...
ANYWAY, I think "TRIALS" and everyone has reached the crossroads, if you want me to sponsor it, meaning you want a big customer market, maybe you better cater to us MORE than we do now... Or figure out how to get REDBULL to pay... So it is going to have to be fixed, I couldn't agree more with the top 2 or 3 classes and how you explained them Rhubbard, makes perfect sense.
But even with my 55 year old brother that ride MOTOCROSS as much or more than I do trials, knows that if he's racing, and enters the class that he's supposed to, that the riders in the race he's in are at least "close" to his skills and talents, and hell age. Those guys pay entries, passes, et al, that also brings the money to put on these events, and yeah someone makes money because it brings in "fans" which trials has a long way to get there yet.
I haven't figured out exactly what or how this would be done differently than what we do as "regionals", where 6 clubs get together and each one, puts on events that the WHOLE CLUB participates, is just about a normal event in every way, except more people show up, we give everyone a free dinner Sat night, and we sell t-shirts BTW. Our club sets up a trials about as good as a nationals most years, except we don't really have to worry about 2 lines, PRO & EXPERT in "nationals" speak difficulty at least. BUT, Those could easily be added, and are for a nationals, why not just have a regular club meet more or less, but with afternoon classes only maybe, due to time and judges.
I have dabbled with the idea, of like natc seems to like to have the "kids nationals" separately, what about a "morning class class with kids all the way up through-sr amature event?" held by clubs that might not have the grounds for a PRO line...
I could host one of those, except I've seen some of the teenage kids nowdays ride harder lines than I can make at my place (master or above).
all the above again, is "thinking outloud" I could start a new thread but might if others have more input here. DONT BE SHY, but be like DHUBBARD, lets not attack each other.
I'm not attacking the NATC in any of my posts, BTW, I am merely trying to point out, that there are things that IMHO might help attendance, even in "lean years" and all that, maybe we can speak our mind here, and get it up the chain of command at some point?