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Old 08-27-2014, 06:26 PM   #217
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Joined: Feb 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
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Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
If you were to re-type each chapter from a book, turn that into a PDF file, and post it on the internet, you would be in violation of the law. That's a derived copy. Even if you make a bunch of typo mistakes or change a few words that result in your "copy" being somewhat different, it's still a derived copy that you don't own the rights to. All the words (roads) in the dictionary are free for everyone to use. But put them in the same order that an original book author did, and publish that for others to read for free, then you're in the wrong.

Or how about taking a video recorder into a movie theater, making a video copy of the movie, then posting that on the internet? If you do that, you're in the wrong. If you knowingly view such a copy, you're stealing from the original creators.
None of that has anything to do with this discussion, especially my reference to books. Of course you can't legally make a copy of a book or movie and sell it. I didn't say that. Your "experience" reading the book or watching the movie is what you paid for. I said when you were done reading the book you are perfectly within your rights to give it to a friend. And when you are finished watching the movie you are perfectly able to talk about the characters, the plot, the ending, the music or discuss the great roads they drove along. And to go ride them yourself.

Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
Clearly Sam would rather be out riding that chasing down every scumbag thief, so it's easy to get away with it. But just because you can get away with it does not make it morally ok. Clearly the tracks, maps, or roll charts and the "TAT experience" are worth something to all those who ride TAT, otherwise they would be out doing some OTHER ride. And since Sam asks to be paid for his hard work, why would anyone feel it's ok to copy it and/or skip out on paying?
For the same reason it is perfectly legal to share a book. You bought the book, you own the book (not the story, the physical book) so you can pass it on. Same is true of any published work, which is what Sam has. You can't make copies of his maps or his roll charts, but the info contained on them is public. That's what published means. As Countdown mentions, it is how we grow the sum total of our knowledge. Someone figures something out, writes a book, someone else reads that and adds the knowledge to their skills and makes something better, And writes a book. On and on.

It isn't at all clear to me that gpskevin "stole" anything. His tracks are not identical to Sam's. If they were, the original poster wouldn't have asked for help. As far as I know gpskevin actually rode across the country. And shared his tracks. Is Sam pursuing any legal remedies? I have no idea but I would be surprised if he was, or could.

I suspect most folks would think of a set of tracks as a set of instructions, which are not protected under copyright. Mrs Fields makes a fine income selling chocolate chip cookies but she has no control over chocolate chip cookie recipies. There are thousands of them out there. Probably 100 of them in my house. Made some for grandkids last week.

Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
Like Countdown said, some people want everything for free, or want someone else to pay.
Just like books. My neighbor gave me the one I'm reading now. I've loaned him a dvd or two. I'm sure the publisher would like us to each buy one but no one broke any laws. Or moral codes. None of that changes just because you like Sam and Jerry and are in the same business as they are.

Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
They have no respect for the hard work of others. That's why I protect my most precious creations so strongly, and significantly limit who gets "in". It hurts other riders because they will never have the opportunity to experience some of the most unique rides around. Lots of good honest people miss out because there are so many scumbags around.
If you published your tracks wouldn't even more people "have the opportunity to experience some the most unique rides around." I think what you really mean is more people would have the opportunity to pay you to experience those rides. Fine with me, but not what you said. Do you really think no one but you and your customers go where you go? How do you know some of your sets of directions isn't already being passed around? It sort of sounds like the real value of your products is that they are secret - so far. Coke's recipe is still secret but Pepsi sells plenty, as well.

Trying to keep them secret is the correct way, IMO. As soon as you publish the info isn't yours anymore. But if someone does happen to go the same way you do and share it, you have no recourse. You didn't publish it so no creative expression so you have no copyright, thus no way to protect anything. And if you did do all that and didn't sue everyone who shared them you would lose the ownership. Part of the requirements. If Sam chooses not so take gpskevin to court he will eventually lose control of the information. (Which I suspect has already happened.)

I've taken lots of guided tours while on vacation. I doubt any of the tour companies have tried to copyright the routes the bus takes from one place to another. What they have of value is the information they provide along the way. Pay your $20, get a set of headphones and ride along. You could follow the bus in your car but you wouldn't know which archduke got killed in which castle. :) But if what the tour company was selling was the route and the view along the way, then following along in your own car would work just fine. Which kind of sounds like your business. And probably why the tour companies don't do it.

I'm not sure "keeping a secret" in the internet age is really a sound business model.

I also don't think calling people names just because they happen to do things differently than you would like them to is really the advrider we want. I think there is enough of that in the world without getting it here.

TIme to go make some tracks - which may or may not be like anyone else's.
Phil in Seattle, WA
Europe 2014
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