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mcsetup · 06-24-2007, 08:57 PM

Hi from Motorcycle Cruise Controls,

Frank and I have been monitoring this conversation for some time and decided it is time for us to put in our two cents worth. I am not sure whether there is any restriction as to how much we can say here, but I will be as straightforward as I can. The key issues you raise seem to be:1. Safety issues? 2. MC Cruise performance vs Audiovox. and 3. Why is out kit so expensive compared to the Audiovox kit?

Answers:

1 Safety issues: Bead chain attachment between actuator and throttle body/carburetor – In 1996 I first installed an after-market automotive cruise control kit to my VFR705 Honda. Since cruise control had been around on cars for 30 years, I assumed it was safe. It worked remarkably well, though I had no clutch cut-out and the connection to the throttle was with a bead chain that came with the car cruise kit. Note that my VFR has a throttle spindle that works from the side of the motor so there was a reasonable amount of clear space around the bead chain to prevent it jamming; or so I thought.

I happily cruised around for a month or so until one day, on an advanced rider training course at the Phillip Island GP circuit, I backed off on the main straight for turn one, but the bike didn’t. As you can imagine things got a bit interesting as I quickly hit the kill switch, braked as much as I could and floated through turn one on a wing and a prayer with a dead engine at about 180kph I think. I wasn’t paying that much attention to the speedo! Turns out that at full throttle it was possible for the bead chain to jam against the frame and lock the throttle partly open. After my pulse rate settled down it was back to the drawing board.

Frank and I have seen quite a number of auto kits fitted to bikes using bead cahins and quite frankly they scare me to death! This highlights the key issue of interfacing to the throttle body or carburetor in a totally safe manner – which my company has spent a lot of time, effort and money addressing in the development of the cable interface unit.

The second key safety issue we have found seems to be reflected in comments by jpalamar where his Audiovox unit has malfunctioned. In our experience, car cruise controls are vulnerable to high voltage spikes which are common on bikes. What happens when a spike hits the chip depends on what it is doing at the time. Typically the chip locks up and ignores all further inputs – so nothing except powering the cruise off will stop it. IF the chip is opening the throttle when it locks, it takes only about 2-5 seconds to pull full throttle! Individuals doing their own installation may be prepared to accept this risk. As a responsible manufacturer, we cannot - and do not. It is also important to note that this problem can manifest itself years after successfully installing the kit. Back in 1999, we had a VFR800 on which the cruise ran perfectly for 18 months. It then went in for a routine service and came back with the cruise shutting off intermittently. It was only a matter of time before a spike hit when the computer was opening throttle – then things got messy! We nearly closed the business at that time, but decided instead to design, build and retrofit every kit out there with a specially designed safety relay. We then went on to design, develop and build our own computer – hardware and software at a cost of about half a million dollars - specifically for motorcycles and ATVs.

2. MC Cruise performance vs Audiovox The first thing to say to this is that this is the first we have heard of our kit not performing. Moreover, we provide support by phone and email to all our customers with any issues they may have. If our cruise is wandering in speed or ‘hunting’, it is generally a minor setup issue or calibration setting and we support our customers in resolving the problem. Audiovox will never do that because while they are probably tacitly aware that people are fitting the kits to bikes and taking the profit, they would inevitably disclaim all responsibility if anything goes wrong. Their kit is designed for cars – not bikes!

Another aspect of this possible ‘lack of performance’ relates to the bikes themselves. If the Honda and Yamahas in question were late model units, then it is very difficult to make cruise control work well on these because the bikes themselves are hyperactive. The R series BMW by comparison is relatively easy to make cruise work well on because it is a big motor with lots of torque and engine braking. I challenge anyone to demonstrate that our cruise control does not work exceptionally well across a very wide speed range on BMWs. Certainly feedback we get is that our kits perform as well or better than the Honda Goldwings – and they are reputed to be the best in the world, but with restricted lower and upper speed limits. As far as reliability goes, our cruise controls have established a reputation for extraordinary reliability and longevity. I am sure advriders themselves know far better than we do, the reliability or otherwise of their BMW bikes and the BMW cruise controls.

3. Why is out kit so expensive compared to the Audiovox kit?

In real terms our kit is not expensive for what you get – a model-specific, plug and play kit with detailed instructions, photos, support and warranty. Tell me anywhere else you can get that type of product for the price and I will go and buy it. So the question is really – ‘Why is the Audiovox so cheap'? The answer is that it is an end run product developed years ago for cars and anything they sell these days is a bonus. They are made in China or Taiwan and churned out by the thousands. By comparison, so far we have sold just ten BMW R1200GS kits. Not much of a return for 3 months development work! Our computer alone costs as much as the complete Audiovox kit just to manufacture. Moreover we are unable to buy the actuator directly from the manufacturer because of distribution rights, so this adds to that cost.

Finally, the US dollar has fallen against the Aussie dollar from $1.92 to $1.19 over the last three years and this has almost doubled the cost of our product in the USA without us doing anything. We have not had a price rise in five years, but as of 1 July 2007, our kits will cost an extra 10% for all but the BMW R1200GS kit. We factored this price rise in when we released it rather than lead the market on with a cheap price just to jack it up later.

There will always be capable home mechanics out there who are outraged by the cost of things. Lets face it – that is how we started. But the cost of actually making something properly, standing behind it and supporting it, making it safe AND delivering it through a distribution chain where everyone needs enough margin to make it worth their while, adds up very quickly. I would love to be able to sell these kits for $400USD – it was our target price when we first started, but it is impossible to achieve that and stay in business nowadays. As far as the Audiovox goes at $100USD – there really isn’t a comparison in any case. Just look at the effort that has gone into our kit and the instructions and you will see that. It comes down to whether you are prepared to compromise your own safety AND whether you are capable of actually doing what is required to make an Audiovox work on your bike. All we can responsibly do is tell you about the dangers, make you aware of the risks and do what we can to reduce them as fellow riders. To that extent, we have decided to make our cable interface unit available for motorcycle models we know people are fitting Audiovox systems to. This at least reduces the hazards involved in interfacing to the carburetors and throttle bodies and we have made our instructions for the BMW R1200GS available to all on our web site, so that people can be aware of the best possible way to connect up all the safety features. But if you buy an Audiovox and fit our cable interface unit and the Audiovox causes a problem, that is between you and Audiovox. We cannot and do not warrant things we don't supply and are aware already have problems. Do a Google search for 'unexpected acceleration' and you will see the discussions going on about just how safe car cruise controls are.

Regards,
Tony Guymer

06-24-2007, 08:57 PM	#22
mcsetup n00b Joined: Feb 2007 Oddometer: 9	Response from MotorCycle Cruise Controls Hi from Motorcycle Cruise Controls, Frank and I have been monitoring this conversation for some time and decided it is time for us to put in our two cents worth. I am not sure whether there is any restriction as to how much we can say here, but I will be as straightforward as I can. The key issues you raise seem to be:1. Safety issues? 2. MC Cruise performance vs Audiovox. and 3. Why is out kit so expensive compared to the Audiovox kit? Answers: 1 Safety issues: Bead chain attachment between actuator and throttle body/carburetor – In 1996 I first installed an after-market automotive cruise control kit to my VFR705 Honda. Since cruise control had been around on cars for 30 years, I assumed it was safe. It worked remarkably well, though I had no clutch cut-out and the connection to the throttle was with a bead chain that came with the car cruise kit. Note that my VFR has a throttle spindle that works from the side of the motor so there was a reasonable amount of clear space around the bead chain to prevent it jamming; or so I thought. I happily cruised around for a month or so until one day, on an advanced rider training course at the Phillip Island GP circuit, I backed off on the main straight for turn one, but the bike didn’t. As you can imagine things got a bit interesting as I quickly hit the kill switch, braked as much as I could and floated through turn one on a wing and a prayer with a dead engine at about 180kph I think. I wasn’t paying that much attention to the speedo! Turns out that at full throttle it was possible for the bead chain to jam against the frame and lock the throttle partly open. After my pulse rate settled down it was back to the drawing board. Frank and I have seen quite a number of auto kits fitted to bikes using bead cahins and quite frankly they scare me to death! This highlights the key issue of interfacing to the throttle body or carburetor in a totally safe manner – which my company has spent a lot of time, effort and money addressing in the development of the cable interface unit. The second key safety issue we have found seems to be reflected in comments by jpalamar where his Audiovox unit has malfunctioned. In our experience, car cruise controls are vulnerable to high voltage spikes which are common on bikes. What happens when a spike hits the chip depends on what it is doing at the time. Typically the chip locks up and ignores all further inputs – so nothing except powering the cruise off will stop it. IF the chip is opening the throttle when it locks, it takes only about 2-5 seconds to pull full throttle! Individuals doing their own installation may be prepared to accept this risk. As a responsible manufacturer, we cannot - and do not. It is also important to note that this problem can manifest itself years after successfully installing the kit. Back in 1999, we had a VFR800 on which the cruise ran perfectly for 18 months. It then went in for a routine service and came back with the cruise shutting off intermittently. It was only a matter of time before a spike hit when the computer was opening throttle – then things got messy! We nearly closed the business at that time, but decided instead to design, build and retrofit every kit out there with a specially designed safety relay. We then went on to design, develop and build our own computer – hardware and software at a cost of about half a million dollars - specifically for motorcycles and ATVs. 2. MC Cruise performance vs Audiovox The first thing to say to this is that this is the first we have heard of our kit not performing. Moreover, we provide support by phone and email to all our customers with any issues they may have. If our cruise is wandering in speed or ‘hunting’, it is generally a minor setup issue or calibration setting and we support our customers in resolving the problem. Audiovox will never do that because while they are probably tacitly aware that people are fitting the kits to bikes and taking the profit, they would inevitably disclaim all responsibility if anything goes wrong. Their kit is designed for cars – not bikes! Another aspect of this possible ‘lack of performance’ relates to the bikes themselves. If the Honda and Yamahas in question were late model units, then it is very difficult to make cruise control work well on these because the bikes themselves are hyperactive. The R series BMW by comparison is relatively easy to make cruise work well on because it is a big motor with lots of torque and engine braking. I challenge anyone to demonstrate that our cruise control does not work exceptionally well across a very wide speed range on BMWs. Certainly feedback we get is that our kits perform as well or better than the Honda Goldwings – and they are reputed to be the best in the world, but with restricted lower and upper speed limits. As far as reliability goes, our cruise controls have established a reputation for extraordinary reliability and longevity. I am sure advriders themselves know far better than we do, the reliability or otherwise of their BMW bikes and the BMW cruise controls. 3. Why is out kit so expensive compared to the Audiovox kit? In real terms our kit is not expensive for what you get – a model-specific, plug and play kit with detailed instructions, photos, support and warranty. Tell me anywhere else you can get that type of product for the price and I will go and buy it. So the question is really – ‘Why is the Audiovox so cheap'? The answer is that it is an end run product developed years ago for cars and anything they sell these days is a bonus. They are made in China or Taiwan and churned out by the thousands. By comparison, so far we have sold just ten BMW R1200GS kits. Not much of a return for 3 months development work! Our computer alone costs as much as the complete Audiovox kit just to manufacture. Moreover we are unable to buy the actuator directly from the manufacturer because of distribution rights, so this adds to that cost. Finally, the US dollar has fallen against the Aussie dollar from $1.92 to $1.19 over the last three years and this has almost doubled the cost of our product in the USA without us doing anything. We have not had a price rise in five years, but as of 1 July 2007, our kits will cost an extra 10% for all but the BMW R1200GS kit. We factored this price rise in when we released it rather than lead the market on with a cheap price just to jack it up later. There will always be capable home mechanics out there who are outraged by the cost of things. Lets face it – that is how we started. But the cost of actually making something properly, standing behind it and supporting it, making it safe AND delivering it through a distribution chain where everyone needs enough margin to make it worth their while, adds up very quickly. I would love to be able to sell these kits for $400USD – it was our target price when we first started, but it is impossible to achieve that and stay in business nowadays. As far as the Audiovox goes at $100USD – there really isn’t a comparison in any case. Just look at the effort that has gone into our kit and the instructions and you will see that. It comes down to whether you are prepared to compromise your own safety AND whether you are capable of actually doing what is required to make an Audiovox work on your bike. All we can responsibly do is tell you about the dangers, make you aware of the risks and do what we can to reduce them as fellow riders. To that extent, we have decided to make our cable interface unit available for motorcycle models we know people are fitting Audiovox systems to. This at least reduces the hazards involved in interfacing to the carburetors and throttle bodies and we have made our instructions for the BMW R1200GS available to all on our web site, so that people can be aware of the best possible way to connect up all the safety features. But if you buy an Audiovox and fit our cable interface unit and the Audiovox causes a problem, that is between you and Audiovox. We cannot and do not warrant things we don't supply and are aware already have problems. Do a Google search for 'unexpected acceleration' and you will see the discussions going on about just how safe car cruise controls are. Regards, Tony Guymer