It's the Offseason....Let's talk about Advanced Topics like Trail Braking

A recent post here reminded me of an interesting discussion I have had with riding buddies who are die hard Keith Code proponents...Trail Braking.

Here is Keith's recommendations for racers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrbZJbXwgrY

I'm not saying I'm right here, I'm only arguing that my approach will keep me on the pavement yet not necessarily give me the fastest lap time.

I like Keith Code a lot and buy into the smooth is fast argument (IMHO, that's just basic physics). What I don't buy into is the argument his followers espouse of staying off the rear brake no matter the situation.

I can see how Keith's explanation would work for track riders working for the best lap time. "If you're entering a corner too hot, slip the front brake and downshift to engine brake and slow the rear so you stay in a gear appropriate to your speed and can exit that corner safely, but with the most speed possible."

My problem with that in the EXTREMES OF TRACTION is I have less control engine braking than I do using my actual brakes.

My REAL WORLD application of this differs for on road riders (not track riders). If presented with this situation (as this flat-road midwestern rider was last year riding in NC and Kentucky) I would/did use the front AND rear to slow the bike and worry about the correct gear later. My theory being that the application of both keeps the bike stable on it's suspension but allows for more braking forces applied before that sharper than expected corner.

I would still downshift so I was in a very ROUGHLY appropriate gear, but I would not engage the clutch as to avoid additional traction loss to the rear tire.

My question for you is: "Why am I wrong?"

EDIT: And hit me with it! I've been an idiot for almost 40 years so I'm used to the abuse!

Just bought the new KTM 1190R my MSC takes care of that for me!
Next topic, Does MSC really stabilize the Motorcycle in a lean well enough to prevent a low side or does the traction control work well enough to prevent a High side?

Off season ?

full throttle

I always use both brakes - one exception: When the brake pads of one are used up and I need some more miles to the nnext service.

I fully agree with you that one has better control with the brake than the engine/clutch (and it's no problem to shift down without using engine braking).

But maybe I should mention: I'm not riding a race bike but a sport tourer. So it's NECESSARY for to use both brakes for maximum braking. Therefore there's no discussion to me if I should use both brakes.

I couldn't actually understand the what the video was actually getting at. Like what is the recommendation (a) have smooth correct downshifts approaching a corner, and (b) be comfortable carrying some speed under brakes into the corner?

I watched it twice and that's all I was able to get from it, which to me is pretty basic stuff. Perhaps I'm missing something important so if someone would enlighten me it'd be appreciated.

What's an offseason?

I find trail braking works really well for my Harley and use it to settle the bike since it has a mushy front end. Done correctly (I have my days) I can carry a lot higher corner speed without much drama than I can by just slowing some. Being in the bikes powerband seems a given to maintain the suspension load and prevent wallowing, as well as being able to fine tune speed and line corrections in the corner.

I've tuned in some overrun on the HD and the R90 is carbed so it has it naturally which let's me be a bit smoother when doing making throttle adjustments mid-corner. On the big BMW and Duc, they have no overrun and the throttle is much more sensitive to accidental closures. Luckily both of those bikes can corner faster than I can, so I just hang on if I'm in too hot but can lightly modulate with the rear brake.

Been riding since the mid '60s, without any education beyond the School of Hard Knocks (graduating in Common Sense in fairly short order)

I'm pretty new to these forums. I keep on coming across these new terms like "encounter steering" and now "trail biking", along with a whole Alphabet Soup of courses and such ATGATT, MSF, CBT, ABS, and so on. Ya'll must be intercourse champions.

I don't like keith code at all. His philosophy of getting on the gas long before the apex spoiles all the fun.

You said "harley" and "corner speed" in the same paragraph

I'll answer my own question. After I wrote the above I had a chance to watch Keith Code's a Twist of the Wrist video. Every YouTube video I've seen is just a piece edited from this video.

I've never liked the YouTube cuts because they seem so out of context or something. But if you watch the whole video, which is about three times as long as it needs to be, totally cheesy, and a whole lot of self promotion, at least each of the individual ideas make more sense.

Now that I know what the term "trail braking" means, about my only thoughts are who doesn't ease of but still carry some braking going into a high speed corner?

Meh, let's not turn this into another Harley bashing thread. There are enough already.

You're absolutely right. It's too damn easy.

grrr...must...resist...saying...something...bad...about...girly men...and .... thier.... ... .HARLEYS!!!! AAAHHHHhhh can't help it!!!!!

Well, I don't know. That's why I asked.

I'm trying to find a safe, comfortable medium between MSF's "Never Touch The Brakes In A Corner Or God Will Kill Puppies!" and Keith's "Never Touch The Rear Brake Ever, Use The Engine!"

MSF's approach is the right one for n00b's and Keith's is probably right for track racers. I'm neither. I'm just a guy who likes to ride hard as safely as possible.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Never touch the brakes in a corner may be an ok ideal in a world comprising straights and hard right angle corners. But what about a steep fast snaking downhill twistie with hardly a straight bit of road in it. The only way to not have the brakes on going into a corner under these conditions would be to ride quite slowly.

I must admit I haven't given any conscious though to the back brake which I'm not heavy on at anytime. I'm assuming not touching the back brake is because of the combined effect of weight transfer forward and engine braking which could cause the back to loose traction. But I've never experienced this problem myself.

Wasn't that long ago that a truck, car, or bike (at least the ones I owned or drove) had pretty ineffective brakes, and wouldn't stop effectively on the brakes alone. The brakes were so bad, that downshifting progressively back through a manual gearbox for braking purposes was pretty much the 'correct' way to drive/ride. You started practicing it the day you got your licence. Changing down the gears was about the only way to pull a single disc rear drum CB750 up. Imagine whatever you ride now with about 1/4 of the brakes, that's about what they had I guess.

So for me your comment was quite interesting as I hadn't given any thought that what to a certain generation may be a basic driving/riding technique may have become a bit lost to a generation only accustomed to cars with modern automatic gearboxes and powerful brakes.

Engine braking is good and all, but generally I would rather used all the brakes I got, locked up the rear, slid around and lowsided before running into something. Not much to run into on the track.

:FLASH: Rain forcast for tomarrow........
Finally, It's the off season!