Faceplant Question....

Because forethought is rarely developed in the most of the human species and most never realize that Newton's laws apply equally to one's personal physics as to the movement of galaxies and planets until they experience it firsthand....and even then, if they survive it rarely retain the lesson.

So I ride a GS... Of course I'm careful obviously because at 60 I've never been in a serious accident. I've been bumped into twice from behind, that's it. BUT if you see me riding, you'll probably say this guy has totally lost it.
There is a great difference in perception when you're in a car and drive vs on a cycle and ride, about what's going on.
An eon ago when I started riding I thought 40 m/hr was quite fast...
And riding motorcycles is not primarily about top speed, it's about speed in the curvies.

So lets evaluate your opinion after you learned to ride the machine, and it takes a couple of years of intense riding to master the art, so in 2-3 years think about this

euphoria - reason
power - restraint
greed - denial
impulse - thought

then there's:

flow - stop
rhythm - spastic
momentum - brake
dynamic - idle

Balance speed, efficiency, traction, safety, and all the above etc. and you'll do fine. But if you think too much while riding a motorcycle you will be in grave danger.

"Slaloming" is the spelling you were looking for.

Passing in the right lane is a normal thing in a society that won't get out of the left passing lane when they aren't actively passing somebody. It's also a normal thing in a society that drives on the left.

Do you live somewhere that allows legal lane-splitting?

Have you tried better mirrors and/or blindspot mirrors on the V-Dub camper? They can make a big difference on a moto. Stock mirrors often suck.

Many people are self-centered idiots who won't accept any personal responsibility. The people who flick you off, after you point out how close they are to getting themselves killed by doing something illegal and highly risky, are a prime example of this.

Stay aware any time you're on a bike, keeping your head in the ride. If you're on a bike and you realize that your head isn't in the ride, it's time to take a break until your head IS in the ride. Realize that any time you get on a bike, you are getting into a risky endeavor. If you find yourself forgetting that, and/or start getting careless about it, it's time to get re-focused. Read some more Faceplant. Read some more books/articles. Take another/refresher rider course.

You can be MUCH safer on a moto than the statistics would imply. Look at how wild many people ride. Look at how unaware many people ride. Look at how unprotected many people ride. Look at how IMPAIRED many people ride. This is not to say that you can eliminate all risk, but you can pare the risk down considerably by being smart and vigilant about riding.

I'm not the safest rider on the planet, but even I have people making snarky comments about my staying in gear at lights, my pointing the bike between the cars in front of me at lights, my hi-viz jacket/shirt, my chest/back armor, my offroad boots, my armored pants, the reflectors on my bike/gear, and the red/amber LEDs I've added to my bikes. I don't really even have close calls anymore while riding, unless somebody is purposely fucking with me, but 10" of suspension and some ground clearance on a narrow bike can usually lose most cages pretty quick around here.

I've said this to my dog before when I caught him licking his balls, but he disagreed.

Considering how often the average domestic canine is allowed to mount...I don't blame them...I'm married (no problem there...just a fun punchline)

Passing on right. This is normally acceptable and the instance you are reffering to is most likely a 2 lane road. I'm talking in the right lane and the joker squeezing between parked cars and me simply to pass. If I had a problem or a parked car opened a door...the guy would be toast. Not to mention, if I were riding I would take into consideration the vehicle I was a around...vintage, delivery van (no windows), semi, or anything and adjust my riding plan (or strategy as I'm learning) accordingly. Passing in a lane whether right or left on any highway 2 lanes or bigger is fine and expected. Passing on the left on a 1-1 highway is touchy but well within anyones abilities and expected by most drivers. Passing on the right in this case is unacceptable and unexpected by others on the road.

Yes. And its acceptable and I plan to do it safely and when appropriate. Not at 40-50mph in <30mph bumper to bumper traffic. Not the way they were....or how I've seen other sport bikers, or squids (wheres this from?), do it.

Stock mirror issue. This is true. They suck...instead I do a lot of moving in the vehicle and always watching whats going on. If my copilot is MIA I count cars before passing. Meaning I don't pass until I see the same car in my rear view as I did in my windshield a moment ago. It requires more patience and thought....but I believe it pays off.

I've got the mindset of keeping myself in check and I think I'll be able to handle that. Its the oil, gravel, or other silly things that take you out that worry me as someone new to riding. Idiots will be idiots no matter what...I will just learn from them and NOT do what they do. I will take my experiences driving and look at the situation as, "If I were in the car next to me (behind, front, etc) what would make them feel more at ease around me (the rider)?" Chances are the right answer is also the safer choice that will get me home in one piece also.

Thanks for the insight and encouragement.

Riding motorcycles is such a RUSH! It gives you such a sense of FREEDOM! It makes you HIGH!

And everyone knows your judgement can be impaired while high. The trick is to find the balance point between fun and safety. Not always easy to do.

You seem quick to judge people doing things you have no experience at, are so sure you can do better.

Right now you drive a marginal bus in heavy traffic. You have no idea how much different it will feel doing it with the power and agility of a motorcycle.

You come off like you have given everything so much thought and yet your first bike is going to be a GS? Good luck with that.

^^^^^ +1 Well said.

We've all seen people acting like fools on bikes. I'm equally sure we've all been seen by folks "acting like fools" on our bikes.

Until you get a bike, get your shit together, and log some serious miles you can talk all you want about how you'll be the most responsible biker and everyone else is a schmuck but you're blowing smoke up asses.

You have no idea how you'll ride when you get time in the saddle.

I can sit and say I'll be a good boy tonight and won't be lead astray by that hot chick at the party, but when push comes to shove who knows what's gonna happen.

Life's fun, don't hypothesize what you might do, get out and fucking do it!

And Adrenalin is a helluva drug!!!

Regarding purchasing a GS right off. I don't like doing things twice. I've been that route so many times in life. Going small or cheap and working up to something else...why spend the money twice? Save the money once, spend it once. The boxer motor made sense coming from building VWs. I'm 6'1" 220ish....I've sat on smaller bikes and they feel..."off". I got some good advice on what to get first...granted it was what I wanted to hear...but oh well. If its too powerful...its only as fast or powerful as your throttle lets it go. My bus has a 2.1 liter EFI motor in it. It puts out over 150hp at the flywheel (not amazing by many standards, but vs the old 40hp...night and day). I drive at 65mph tops. Why? I respect the motor, the car, the time and money I've put into it...I don't want to break it or wreck it. I respect that it takes twice as long to stop and almost always have an escape route. With the gearing in the car...yeah I can blow the doors off a civic at a light....do I no...have I ...no. Abuse of speed and power just leads to broken parts....I've seen transmissions broken in half with combos weaker than mine. I drive within the limits of the vehicle, well within....more importantly I drive within the limits of my checkbook and my insurance card.

Let me get this straight....some people here are advocating breaking the law in the name of fun and in the search for a rush? No thanks.

Yeah, I'm sure its fun to do these things...and I'm sure I would enjoy doing them too. Really though...survival and economy is a bigger pay off in the end than a few seconds at 100mph.

I realized something the other day going down the road thinking about this conversation and attitudes involved. Laws are not only there to control people and keep you safe (maybe), but they also give you a set of guidelines of what you should expect others to be doing also. Like the whole passing on the right gutter thing...that is against the law and as someone who has studied traffic laws and "graduated" (drivers license) I don't necessarily expect someone to break the laws like that and can set a lower priority to that zone and focus on the road ahead. When someone disobeys something like that because they CAN it puts everyone at risk. Another EXTREME example is driving on the right (in the USA). Yes you CAN drive on the left, but no one is expecting that and will probably end up getting you killed. This is a guideline we have come to follow and expect others to follow...thus we plan our driving around that rule. My point is...do what others expect you to do and be where others expect you to be...and I would think your day to day survival rate will increase.

I'm 33. I've gone fast and done silly things. They don't interest me...I like to go places, places you can't get to easily, see things, do things....I like the route more than the drive.

Now all I have to do is practice what I preach, head others advice, and learn from others sillyness.....should be easy enough


there needs to be a new saying, "Drive it like you're still making payments on it"

I think your original question as to why certain people ride motorcycles is a little bit naive. People do lots of stuff that many of us would not do, and many of us do stuff that other people would not do.

Some people are smarter than others.

Some people care less than others do.

Some people enjoy risky behavior more than others do.

If you really want to know why people do what they do, go get yourself a degree in psychology. Short of that, just accept the fact that we're all different and move on.

My question WAS a bit off. I admit it. I didn't really expect a straight answer.

My main question is, why do some motorcyclist take risks on a bike that they would probably not do in a car.

At the same time...they are, or probably would, be the same asses in lowered civics thinking weaving through rush hour traffic actually gets you somewhere....yeah it does...2 car lengths ahead of me....the guy going the speed limit and staying in his lane.

Just to throw in here:

1. I used all your arguments to get a 1150GS within a few months of learning to ride, and it almost put me off of riding completely. I used the same arguments- I'm a big guy, I don't like to buy things twice, I can control how much throttle I give it and on and on and on. And it was a HUGE mistake. The rule I've come to is: this is a sport, and it's supposed to be fun. Maybe you can "handle" a big bike as a first bike, but is it going to be fun? Is it going to make you a better rider? No way.

It's big, it's heavy, it's tall and it's awkward. You're going to be learning an entire set of new skills at once, all while encumbered. It made riding no fun at all- it became a white-knuckle experience.

2. Let's not jump too quickly to judge the squiddoos. They're stupid and reckless and underdressed and untrained, but man alive... a day when your lines and clicking and you can see traffic all around and everything feels right is a great day. It's intoxicating when you really get comfortable in the saddle and realize that you can do everything (brake, accelerate, turn) exponentially faster than the cars around you. It's easy to forget the danger and get caught up in the rush of it all.

Don't go do 100mph in a t-shirt, but don't think they're a different species than us.

OK. Soapbox over.

Because there are a lot of stupid people in this world. Stupid people do a lot of stupid things. It is a lot easier to see them when they are on bikes. Stupid people are less visible when participating in other activities such as abusing alcohol, cheating in school or voting. Those activities are not done in such as way as to draw attention like riding a motorcycle does so it is harder to determine how stupid they are at those times.

Thank you DJFLOWE. What you said makes a lot of sense.

I'm kind of committed to the GS at this point. I'll have to make the best of it. I'll keep your feelings in mind the first time it falls over...telling myself...I picked this one...it will get better if I just keep at it. Probably easier said than done.

^^^^^ That was exactly my thought. What size is it? 1200GS, or a smaller one... Most assume the 1200, as I do..

My 2cents:

It all comes down to experience and riding/driving within your limits. If you want to push your limits, fine, but a little bit at a time will get you farther than throwing yourself in the deep end.

I've been riding for years and driving for years. I've learned respect for your vehicle is first and foremost. Once you can learn to operate your vehicle to it's ability, the rest is up to you. It takes a while to become good at anything, and to consider yourself a professional. I'd consider myself a professional rider on the street, but I only have 1k miles on my Tiger 800xc and am fully aware of what I don't know when it comes to dirt. (And that's half the fun!) Learning what you don't know is something that comes with experience and always supersedes what you do know.

If you can push yourself to master your abilities in a relatively safe environment for many years, you will share a much different opinion on your topic. If you ride for many years like a Granny (or typical Harley) rider, you won't get better.

I've gotten very used to driving very fast and can drive like I'm in a video game all day long without much as a breeze from the cars as they go by. I've raced many things with wheels, practice many hobbies that focus your reaction time, information processing and hazard identification, and can easily slide my cars (see below) or drag pegs/knees around corners all day long. But, you have to know that if you can't see around a corner or around a truck or are in the city with many obstacles, then you just can't realistically see everything at every time and should slow down.

That's why I don't commute anymore, go to cities or venture near civilization if I can avoid it. I know this.

I find it easier driving to go faster than traffic because everything is going in one direction. If I slow down, I have no idea what may be coming up behind me if my visibility is limited and a simple twitch of the wheel to avoid someone changing wheels becomes a hard brake and/or wheel/bar movement. Plus, I have a car that can out accelerate and out brake most vehicles, like a motorcycle, but can swerve like a bike can't.

There are people that know how to go fast, and there are people who don't, and do it anyway. It's hard for people that don't have the skills to realize that they can exist.

Take a few classes, go to a gymkhana, go to a track day, off-road class, and then practice practice practice. Good fundamentals paired with experience will elevate you to new places and a renewed love for the sport.

Most people are completely incapable of driving/riding correctly and don't even follow the simple rules, like turn signals and lane changes. So, it's a shame we can't have the autobahn in the US. In Germany, and other EU countries, it's expensive and takes months of advanced driving skills to get a license. That said, they have a lot less accidents and half as many deaths. They also can drive without speed limits in some areas, and 95% of the time there is nobody at all in the left lane, as it's reserved for passing.

That's easy: Because I CAN. And because I GET AWAY WITH IT. If I'd wo by car what I do by bike, I'd crash regularily, because the car wouldn't fit in the spaces I use with my bike. (longer, wider, slower, less flickable)
And when I make mistakes, there's still place to get away with it.

However, 60mph is way too slow.

If it wasn't a jealousy thing, you wouldn't pat yourself on your shoulder for your "common sense".

Well, since cars are at least as fast as bikes in the curves, riding is primarily about acceleration.

Try looking more than 10 seconds ahead, the distance gets waaaay longer then.

Interesting approach. But since laws shouldn't be there to be obeyed but to service, I'm playing better with not expecting what laws tell but what normal persons do.

Don't get hit.