What kind of battery for adventuring, is Lithium up to the challenge?

Joel have not been around much lately .. he's probably been really busy running his dealership ... sooo I'll pitch in ...

ALL charging systems designed to support PB puts out 13.8v to 14.2v at mid rpm. which matches perfectly with LiFePO4's voltage range of 14.6v full charge down to 12.85v, about 15% charge remaining. BMW F8 is one of the few exceptions with voltage actually dropping to about 14v at high rpm. this is why a replacement R/R is recommended to increase voltage to normal profile.

LiFePO4 will operate between 13.3v to 12.85v which constitutes about 90% of available power. don't go below 12.85v to avoid shorting life. all LiFePO4 are constructed of 4 cells in series to produce correct voltage for a 12v system. each 4x 26650 series = 2.5AH (new series cells) ... so 16 cell = 10AH actual or a perfect size fit for KTM 990 original 11AH AGM.

just finished doing tech support for a 990Adv with electrical gremlins in Finland going RTW. most issues with correct LiFePO4 sizing for 990adv, which should be similar to 990RR are covered here http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=914232

Currently EarthX has the most advanced LiFePO4 battery out with internal BMS, overcharge and under discharge protection using MOSFETs rated at 600amps.

Don't want to sound like a dick, but how does a 14.2 RR output ( maybe much less at idle, top off a 14.6 rated battery.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4

good question actually .. each LiFePO4 cell is fully charged at 3.65v x 4 = 14.6v .. resting voltage drops to about 14.25v for a LiFePO4 battery without internal BMS. with cell balancing voltage is shunted off until desired voltage is reached. resting voltage with internal BMS is about 13.85v.

voltage drops rapidly at first discharge to 13.3v range. then remainder of discharge cycle will be extremely flat. about 1/2v variation for 90% of usable amp hour.

13.3v to 12.85v (15%) is the normal range LiFePO4 lives in. Let's say LiFePO4 battery is charged at 14.2v ... no it will not charge up to 100% levels, but it will charge to about 95% or so. charge cycles just below full charge greatly increases number of charge/discharge cycles LiFePO4 batteries will deliver.

think water in a pipe ... voltage = pressure ... current = flow
at 14.2v it's not possible to overcharge a LiFePO4 battery. which is a good thing.
ALL charging systems designed to support PB will charge at 13.8v to 14.2v at mid rpm.

one common failure mode for permanent magnet charging systems is what happens when the rectifier/reg fails? output of 18v+ @ say 30amps could dumped into your battery .. killing battery in short order ... LiFePO4 battery getting slammed with say 39v for extended periods could end up in a fire.

this is where EarthX's latest development of using MOSFETs for overcharge and under discharge protection has a HUGE advantage! American engineering at it's finest. LiFePo4 cells used in motorcycle batteries may be mfg overseas... but the know how that started it all came from good ole USA. It's happened again ... quite an engineering feat by EarthX!

So in a practical sense the 14.6 is a bit misleading...if you found your EarthX at 13.85after sitting for a day or two with no parasitic loss you could be happy that you have, effectively, a fully charged battery or should I say a battery that under the circumstances has all the power it will ever have for starting purposes? Further, if you found the voltage at this level on a super cold morning, would there be any benefit gained by plugging in a charger overnight or for an hour or two, to try to get the voltage higher? If no charge benefit, is it likely that plugging it in overnight will warm it much to be able to avoid the cold starting technique, which always seems to me wasteful of battery power and causing extra wear on starting components. If there is little charging current I would assume little heating also. My thoughts were to install a 120 v battery heating blanket as i have done for pb vehicle batts in Nebraska and Wyoming. Antigravity Scott told me this was a reasonable plan.

not miss leading at all .. that's just how LiFePO4 works.
if a 12v LiFePO4 battery is charged full to 14.6v, then allowed to rest overnight.

if LiFePO4 battery has no internal BMS to balance cells. resting voltage will drop to about 14.25v ... if LiFePO4 has an internal BMS resting voltage will drop to about 13.85v. how cell balancing works is after each cell reaches 3.65v, current is shunted until voltage reaches about 3.46v. weaker cell(s) has a way reach same state of charge as stronger cells.

during assembly process mfg carefully matches cells. but it's very difficult, some say impossible to perfectly match all cells. in larger AH LiFePO4 as number of cells increase, it becomes even more difficult to achieve a perfect match.

then when cells age they never deteriorate at same rate. so it's inevitable that cells will eventually become unbalanced. As LiFePO4 batteries age, it's important for batteries with no internal BMS to manually balance cells with an external charger.

Shorai has external balance ports that can be hooked up to any hobby charger to bring all cells to same state of charge. Antigravity should be balanced charged with Optimate Lithium LiFePO4 charger that also will bring all cells to same state of charge.

EarthX has always had internal cell balancing and has just added overcharge and under discharge protections with MOSFETs. So most any PB battery charger can be used.



Shorai after reaching 100% charge with Cel Pro Powerlab 8, one of the world's most advanced chargers. Fluke 87V reads 14.56v or fully charged with a new battery. As cells age max achieved full charge voltage will drop.

From Joel original posting and testing to Cy's typical un-abashed pushing of brands that give him free stuff I see a couple constant facts... whether lead acid or lithium everyone has had problems with a battery at some point.

Well let's put all the tech info aside for a minute to see what the kindly folks at Antigravity Batteries can do for you so you don't get stuck in the boonies with a dead battery. But lets take it further and make sure your not getting stuck with a dead cell phone right when you need to make that important phone call to get help....

Well I spent alot of time pondering that.. and Antigravity finally developed a product that is a battery that will get you OUT of emergencies rather than be the cause of one...

Some of you may know this product others may not... but I wanted to show it all to you...My goal is to tell you this product can save your butt wherever you are and it actually a battery...

So without further ado I introduce the Antigravity Batteries MICRO-START/PPS (Personal Power Supply)... LEARN MORE HERE

WHAT IS THE MICRO-START?

The Micro-Start PPS (Personal Power Supply) is the world's smallest Jump Starter and Personal Power Supply (only 6” x 2-7/8” x 1&#8221. and not only will it jump-start any car, truck, motorcycle or powersports vehicle UP TO 20 times in a row, but it can also power or charge ANY and ALL of your Electronic Devices even if your 100's of miles from any power source. Just charge it once throw it in your pocket, purse or backback and your set. It's your personal power supply to take where ever you ride, drive, hike, or whatever...
It even has a built in flashlight with S.O.S patterns built in! We feel this is one of the most important safety/security devices you will ever buy. In today's world we rely so heavily upon our Cell Phones, iPads, GPS, Blue Tooth Devices, MP3 player and more...the Micro-Start with it's ability to charge all these devices and start your bike....






Pretty cool huh?

no apologies for pushing products of mfg's that's got the confidence of sending their products to me for testing. even though they know that I'm going to be putting their products through the wringer, including brutal load tests.

Kudos to AntiGravity for understating spec's especially PB/EQ. which are all over the place, who can blame folks for not knowing who to believe after reading about all the LiFePO4 failures (mostly due incorrect sizing LiFePO4) regardless of what you believe, I'm not connected to any LiFePO4 mfg and have no agenda. when particular LiFePO4 battery that I know to be correct for the application. I will go out of the way to let folks know .. it's my belief that folks out there value someone like Joel Wiseman and myself, who give an unbiased opinion based on hard repeatable data!!!

this includes AntiGravity Micro-Start Personal Power Supply that you sent to me for testing. for the last month or so have been constantly using Micro-Start most every night. including several camping trips. surprisingly flashlight seems to be the most used feature.

headed out on another camping trip this weekend with Micro-Start in tow. rest assured that tests results from me will include real life feedback. much more to come...

lately have been fielding lots of questions from KTM 990Adv/BMW R1200/HP2 folks going to remote locations including frigid temps. KTM spec'd an 11AH AGM, realistically a 14AH AGM for frigid temps.

this means only a tiny battery tray is available. 990 KTM doing Adventure duties requires a min of 10AH LiFePO4 (16cell Antigravity?). but if someone is using their KTM990Adv on an extended winter trip. 14AH actual LiFePO4 is recommended if one wants a bombproof LiFePO4 battery.

sorry but the only 14AH LiFePO4 that will fit into a KTM990Adv battery tray is EarthX ETX36 (14AH actual). more importantly EarthX had the guts to send an ETX36 for me to test. so when someone has a specific requirement with a particular motorcycle under winter conditions. I can state without hesitation that EarthX ETX36 or Shorai LFX36 both will sustain a 250+amp continuous load at 15f. but Shorai LFX36 or LFX21 is way too large to fit into KTM990Adv's tiny battery tray.

another extreme example is someone in Toronto with BMW1200 riding all winter doing short 10 minutes rides in to work with no easy way to charge battery up at night. this is perfect application for LiFePO4 batteries which charges to 90% state of charge within minutes. But starting a 1200cc motorcycle in Canadian winters requires a LiFePO4 battery with large AH capacity to compensate for cold temps. a 14AH LiFePO4 would be the minimum size needed.

since I've never tested an AntiGravity 24 cell (15AH actual) and have no clue how it would respond to 15f starts with a 1,200cc motor or fit into a tiny battery tray. but I have tested an EarthX ETX36 (14AH actual) and know it will deliver the goods at 15f and fit into BMW R1200's tiny battery tray.

AntiGravity Micro-Start Personal Power Supply on top of Wolfman duffel getting ready to head out.

And pleased that I just bought an EarthX 36 for my adventure. Yet to fit it. I took the Microstart camping recently at the KTM Nat rally in Steamboat. My AGM is on its last legs so thought it good insurance. I didn't have to use the starting side of the beast but used it to charge my Galaxy S3 in the tent. This was REALLY convenient. However, considering how amazing the YouTube video is I thought the Micro would run forever as a portable charger. It charged my phone battery (separately, in a standalone charger...I have a spare battery I switch out in the phone sometimes...or in the phone, where it is actually running the phone and charging the battery) but ran out of juice after 3 or 4 charges...sorry I don't remember which, but it was at least 3 times.
Honestly I thought it would be good for about 10 charges...just a gut feeling. That being said I am by no means disappointed with the purchase. The alternative at a campground was sitting around by an outlet as it charged, or plugging it into my bike, where I always worry about an overnight charger or battery fire, and risk killing the already suspect battery of the bike as well.
I am keen to hear some more feedback on the Micro's big twin starting abilities. Maybe as I am fitting my EarthX I will plug the Micro into the loose leads and give it a crank...stay tuned...

How can the MicroStart start your bike even once (much less 20 times) if it poops out after three charges of your cell phone?

I have an AntiGravity battery in my bike and it has functioned flawlessly, including my recent SA trip. However, I have no idea if it was better than the OEM battery I took out would have been.

The proper BATTERY for the F800GS is a grey case AGM, made by DEKA, part number ETX14
Made in USA ( Pennsylvania ) and rated around 220 CCA, they will usually test at around 340 Cold Cranking Amps when new, a little higher after a years regular usage.
When fully charged, and in good condition, a well used DEKA ETX14 will start a high compression small block chevy at 5 degrees Fahrenheit.
.
DEKA part # ETX14
That is what you want.

Let me set the record needle in the groove....the Micro-Start doesn't "poop out" after 3 charges of the good mans Galaxy S3... Keep in mind a Galaxy S3 charge lasts maybe a day.. yet the Micro-Start gave him 3 charges which could be a potential of 3 days of use... that is darn good considering the Micro-Start in not much bigger than 2 Galaxys bolted together. Plus he will also have the ability to flip that big KTM about 20 times in a row and I hope he tries it and videos it for you all, that would be cool.

Now to cut down to the science of it all .... the XP1 is 4000mah battery... The Galaxy S3 has a battery that is 2500mah according to specs... so him getting 3 charges is totally awesome... for a pocket size device you cannot expect massive capacity, it just impossible. Yet the Micro will rip start that KTM 20 times because it is exceptionally good at high discharge pulses that won't deplete the capacity to much.

Last, the device is massively cool and does function as we describe, and we will refund no questions asked if anyone isn't entirely happy... but the truth is it fits in your pocket, has a flashlight, charges your laptops, cell phones, blue tooth, go pro, and most anything... but it's a 14 oz electronic device. It does have limits... though I personally haven't found any...

Antigravity, something I'm surprised was not mentioned...
How can you recharge the microstart of your bike?

The Micro-Start does come with a Cigarette type charger, as well as a Wall Plug in type charger (110 an 220 acceptable)..... so a person could actually get a female cigarette lighter cable to attach to the keyed power side of the bike and charge it while the bike is running... But keep in mind YOU MUST make sure you attach any type of option like this to a KEYED power circuit and only try charging while the bike is running... Meaning you don't want it attached directly to your battery of your bike, or the Micro-Start would be draining your battery to charge itself. It was originally designed to be charged and taken with you, but this option of charging while you ride is feasible, as it is for charging while in a car, but as I said we recommend only attaching to a keyed switch with a complete dis engage from the bikes battery when not riding.

Disclaimer- NEVER USE ANY OTHER CHARGER EXCEPT FOR THE PROVIDED CHARGERS!!!!! AND ONLY CHARGE DIRECTLY THROUGH THE UNITS CHARGING PORT!!!"
It is NOT lifepo4 so it cannot and should not be charged by any other method except what is provided and instructed or dangerous situations could develop. USE ONLY AS INSTRUCTED... It is to be used only as a Jump-Starter and small electronics charger!

The reason I'm saying all this stuff is because some guy used one to power an electric dump trailer's motor using the jumper clamps side of the battery and ruined the battery by big time over discharge of the unit. He showed video of it working to which we replied .... please don't use it for that. And a week later we get a call that the Micro is not working anymore... Yeah, of course it's not working anymore you used it to power a 30 amp motor for 60 seconds a pop and ruined the battery. Please use only as intended...

I am glad you clarified that...apparently the capabilities of these batteries are beyond the power of my small brain. That was obvious when I watched the YouTube video...I found its cranking ability to be totally astounding...and again, as I stated, I thought it was a very good purchase just for that convenience of being able to recharge devices, whether 50 yards or 50 miles from the nearest outlet. (For the other poster, there is a wall and cigarette lighter charger).
So I will make a point of trying the crankiness out when I pull out my OEM battery. I will try to get a clip of this and post a link.
Great product anyway...on my favorite purchases list and I made a point of flashing it around at the National Rally in Steamboat.

I haven't seen this question asked and I don't really want to go back through 24 pages of comments trying to find what might not even be there -- which of the several 16-cell battery options should I look for to put in my '09 F800GS? I need the 16-cell because I ride clear down into the teens and I don't have a garage.

Thanks,

Joe B

Check out this one:
http://antigravitybatteries.com/ytx12-16/

The one linked above will work and is internally the same, but the terminals are reseeded and will require heavy modification of cable ends or very tall spacers.

This one http://antigravitybatteries.com/ag-1601/ Will fit with just slight flattening of cable ends and foam shimming with included foam which is easy. It will also depending on how you cut the foam, leave room to store something like jumper cables there :)

P.S. I've never broken a 16 cell antigravity and have had one in a test F8GS for over a year now and it's ridden in Minnesota winters so it should work well for you.

Good luck and enjoy.

What Joel said. I have that battery and it has served me well. No problems on my trip to SA.

As far as extra space, I was able to fit a FuseBlock in the space at the end.

Thanks for the responses, and now one last question before I head out -- If we don't get any warning before these batteries die how long should we wait before replacing them? 3 years? 5 years? 10?

Thanks,

Joe B

They better last more than 3-5 years or what's the point in running one? I gave up on lithiums after 2 failed Shorais. I only tried the Shorais to replace 6 year old regular batteries. For my regular rides I will just be replacing batteries at 5 years with good old lead acid, our quads batteries are 6 and 7 years old, intermittently run and charged via battery tender once or twice a year. I keep poking in here to see the status of the "new" batteries and may try an AntiGravity in another year if one of my bikes needs a battery but otherwise I just can't justify triple the cost, unless I was racing and looking to shave every possible ounce.