Dynojet PC-5, with Autotune, and full exh. system Tune...

I am admitting defeat Terry. I am sorry I have been such a stubborn individual, and to all that have rolled their eyelids backwards, please accept my apologies. The SAS is in fact alive and well, on the 8GS, of that I am convinced.. That out of the way, I will now focus on how to disable it, in a good workable fashion. After reading all the info, I too believe that it will cause a false reading of the Lambda. The question is though, how much, and how bad. I think we can all agree that for air, or should I say O2 to work enhancing the burned mixture, thus enhancing power, and efficiency of the motor, it has to be combusted. There were a few things in Joel's post that I disagreed with, and without starting a fight, this issue was one of them. Afterburners belong on a jet engine ( of which subject I know quite a bit of) not on bikes. So in order for that extra shot of air to help in the power equation, it simply has to be combusted. It is in fact not, so it is not, when active, confusing the fueling, as it is now a fourth power in the matter. ( KMS-K.....PC-5......AT..... and now the SAS) I believe that as long as the algorithm in the software is in control, you can mesh those pieces ( BMS-K, and SAS) but when you then inject third party boxes, like the DJ PC-5/AT, then you are going to be off. I am quite stumped that DJ has no inclusion on this matter, as it clearly is affected, and they pride them self on being the power king of boxes. So with that out of the way, let's focus on what is happening. Assuming that those two holes are in fact direct paths to the exhaust side on the chamber..... I offer the following assessment. When the SAS system is active, ambient air is sucked into the exhaust system, somewhere just prior to the headers. That is now causing the O2 sensor to read falsely, if we regard to that as " combusted" mix. The O2 sensor in reality simply reads...well..... ehhhh.... O2. no matter where it comes from. But the problem arises when in fact, not all that air ( mix) is combusted. Lets take my case for example. An AFR to be maintained of 13.2 at the measuring point say 3-4 feet aft of the SAS injection.... mathematically the air prior to the SAS would have to be lower AFR, as the SAS injection will raise the AFR. So how much lower..... 13.0.....12.5...... I have no clue. But as non combusted air is worthless in regards to power, or control, I have no use for it, as I have already broken the first part of the EPA chain, bu removing the Charcoal Canister. The aspects to perhaps become aware of is how often, and when the SAS is active. I would like to take a step further, and rather than discover that, simply skip that step, as I have deemed the SAS unnecessary....and perhaps detrimental. So I intend to safe the fuel add tables of the PC-5/AT, zero it out, and plug that line to the SAS. Ride, and discover the change in behavior of the overall handling of the bike, and how the PC-5/AT compensates. Howsthat for a turnaround......

It is a bit a tangled mess of threads but we've been keep them separate (but in synch) because, IMO, (a) they are separate topics and (b) the SAS thread was started over 2 years ago and I recently bumped it up for different purposes.

Great points...... But you know... you cannot let the rain stop you..... I will await your findings as you let'er rip through the rain......WE ARE ALL WAITING......

Fully agree.....

This is excellent information. Thanks Gaspare!

Erling, I think you can disconnect that solenoid without the BMS-K seeing it as an error.

I'm desperately trying to keep up.... Haha

Erling

Absolutely no need to apologize, we are working together to find solutions that work for all of us. You are not defeated, the information you have garnered is invaluable, the path was the one we needed to take to get where we are. There is still much to do and understand.

The comment regarding the many threads was in jest, yes they are seperate and should remain so.

Terry

Yeppers...... I am looking forward to discover more..... But in 25 minutes the Eurovision International Melody Gran Prix starts...... and My home country is in the final..... Might have to wait a little longer.

Are you saying the ignition advance and curve is the same for a 650gs and a F800gs?

I have been under the ASSumption that is not true. One reason is that one bike needs premium and the other runs regular. They both have the same CR and I do understand dynamic vs static compression ratio's.

To add some credence to that, several months ago a poster added the F800cams to his F650. Initially he reported it started fine and further testing was required. His last post was the bike needs the F800gs ECU without further explanation or posts.

I will tend to second your motion..... As the 8GS does not have a knock sensor, and the 650 does..... different octane req. I would like to think that the ignition map are different between the two.

The areas that have small amount of fuel added (single digit percent) are most likely the areas that didn't take much fuel to get to 13.5 (8% addition nominally) or 13.2 (10% nominally). Where there are very big numbers (see next comments) I suspect that the SAS is adding air.

Therefore a reasonable next step is to disable SAS by unplugging the connector or plugging up the hose itself and then riding for a few tanks of fuel.

At 14.7:1 there is almost no O2 in the exhaust . At 13.2 to 13.8 there is even less than that. Therefore small amount of added air will lead to a large increase in the AFR the PCV sees. (Remember those 18% numbers we talked about a few pages back?) I strongly suspect that any number more than 10-12% in the Trim table is incorrect (other than the "hop" numbers).

Here would be my plan of attack.

1. Save your current tables.
2. Set the 2, 5;1250, 1500 AFR targets to zero so that it doesn't adjust.
3. Set the Trims for those values to zero also.
4. Disable SAS
5. Take any Trim cell that is great than 10 and revert it to 10.
6. Ride for a while and see what happens. You can always to back having saved the tables.

EDIT: Also, I would reduce the maximum trim to 15% so that you don't get one cell going out of bounds. Even with your exhaust mods, I doubt any cell will need more than a 15% trim to get to 13.2-5. Your tuner stopped at 10% for the WOT cells.

Misunderstanding: talking about OEM settings definitely not!
They are deeeeply different...
I've just said both of us reflashed our ECU with the same modified setup.
The target was different: he was looking for maximum performance, and I was for an optimization and valuable increasing of performance - so, we decided to cooperate in order to obtain the best result, trying at the same time to understand how are the different camshafts working on the same sw.
So, the results came together and are actually very fine.
I'm running with an average of 22 km/l (up to you to convert the units) and in first gear I've to be careful not to go WOT otherwise I'm going to brutally wheelie.
Funny that we both thought the 800 cams were for hi-rev power, but we were wrong! They - compared to 650 ones - are for more torque onto the whole of rpms.... so the fully-squeezed 650 is still away from a reasonable mild mannered 800.
Now the friend (hitten in his self-esteem) is now waiting for the valve check to replace the cams with a model S ones. Bad boy

PS - the reflashing is an HIS work-of-art (he's an expert in car tuning) and is done by BDM port, so it's necessary to open the ECU... just to complete the info

PPS - to eliminate the SAS is enough to unplug the connector.
Tried to spin the wheels (stupid rainy clouds: in-gear & on center stand) and no error message; moreover the EV is normally closed, so it's stopping the flow while de-energized.
Then, the missing of an error signal is actually saying how is this system important for the engine functionality... and - sorry Joel - the contribution to performance thru RAM effect is really negligible.

I think this is a good plan of action for tomorrow.....

On the idle-hop ... I would leave four 20s in the base map, set the AFR targets to zero. And then try to put zeros there on the Trim map.

Are you sure you can't manually change the trim map? Didn't the tuner get those 10s in the Trim table?

I was under the impression he did, but when I looked, I saw no way how to change the trim table. They appear, after you lick " get map" ie, loads from the pc-5. I will have a look in the morning....well....noonish.

Good morning, mates! Sunshine today: afternoon ride & late report scheduled.

Two points left from yesterday night:

well, both of them are not equipped with knock sensor.
Then - back to previous misunderstanding, as jscottyk asked, the firmware (configuration) is the same because the management of the motors is the same - despite to the presence of SAS onto the 650.
Settings are [OEM] different.
That's why is possible to rewrite the same maps and expect the "same" results, and the SAS is not affecting because lambda readings are from SAS-OFF areas.

Hi EB, I have the PCV software installed. For sure you can program the Base, AFR, and Trim maps. Maybe Get map, then Save map. All three are saved in one file.

Here's another idea for the four hop cells. Make them 12 in the Base Map, set the target AFR to 12.9 for those 4, and start with 0 in those four trim cells.

I will admit not having any experience with the 650 twin, but thought I had read time after time, that it had a knock sensor, as that subject was debated, with regard to the low octane fore that model, and not for the higher compression 800....

I will have a look......again. I am not real keen on changing the trim tables though. In trying to stay in the realm of the PC-5 workings.... the trim table is what the AT changes, to satisfy the base map. For all practicality, I have a zero map, but the target AFR overrules the base map ,as AT is active. Sooooooo, if I have told the AT to maintain a 13.2 AFR, and AT then says....hmmmm... I need a +12% to do so, then I don't think I want to force the issue of anything other than +12%. That said, Yes, you can change the values, but as far as transfer the trim settings to the PC-5, and it accepting them, is what I am not sure about.

I understand where you're coming from. I'm trying to help you with some ideas to fix up the errors caused by the SAS errors.