The F5 Bivouac (rallye raid news) and W2RC - World cross country rally championship

A lot of functions could be done in an Android device (like roadbook, basic GPS functions, odometer). But I doubt you could make such a consumer device reliable enough to be used in rally racing. For the target I'm aiming for, there is no existing device that has the unique hardware I need to accomplish what I want. So I have to design it myself.

Tony, consider me ready for buying and testing one of your prototypes.
PM me the details when you're ready and I'll be happy to put in a deposit if needed.

I also know a few others in the Norwegian offroad community that might be interested in such a NAV device. I'll spread the word.

However, I reckon there should be a market for such nav devices in the rally-wannabee-circles as well as those seriously training for rally raid events. A functional user-programmable waypoint-based nav-device emulating the roadbook/COG/GPS routines necessary for rally raids has a market of its own.

Agree, I'd be interested too, this could be a great option for training.

I think you are over complicating it. For training you need a roadbook, an ico and something showing cap heading (eg garmin foretrex showing heading). When you think you get close to the waypoint you can use your garmin to check.

The hard part is writing a roadbook - who is writing the roadbook and if it is you then you will remember most of the route anyway. Your best bet would be to get hold of old roadbooks from competitors and run stages of previous rallies.

Rally is a tiny community and you need to think carefully about number of potential customers for anything specifically rally related.

Already familiar with that solution - and my preference is a system where I have both the true compass heading my bike rides in addition to a GPS system that only activates within a certain distance from desired waypoints.

That is a high-mounted GPS-compass repeater showing my true heading in magnetic degrees AND a handlebar mounted WP-activated GPS system which at best can be allowed to display heading to next waypoint with an arrow, compass heading and distance from WP.

The roadbook making is also a given factor to make this work.

Tim,

Another inmate is working on something similar that I have been helping in the hardware department. I've wanted to produce a digital roadbook device for a while, but am unfamiliar with details and nuances of what the market requires. I think Craftycoder's app could be modified to fill the gap as a training device as you have mentioned. But I'm interested in a solution similar to what Hogwild is speaking of.

Here are the innards that adapted from Craftycoder's prototyping with Arduino components LINKY. Another LINKY.

And here is the tripmaster device connected to the phone LINKY.

I think a hardened phone like the Casio Commando would be a great option with the weak link being to USB connection to the phone being a chink in the phones water/dust proof armor.

The tripmaster will also have a GPS module option for feeding position data to tablets that are non-GPS enabled.

The Android phone app is pretty handy.


It wouldn't take much to assemble the components for a "consolidated" digital device for rally navigation. The e-ink displays would be ideal for displaying roadbook data. I wonder how long tradition will prevent modern technology from replacing the cutting, taping and highlighting roadbooks?



Hogwild, if you want help or ideas on your project let me know. I'd be glad to help.

Just a comment, it's a lot harder than it looks to get electronics ultra reliable in that environment. Everything has to be over designed and it needs the crap tested out of it. (Think shaker tables and temperature /humidity cabinets).
It's not just heat, water condensing inside when the temp drops below zero when the sun sets will also kill electronics quickly.
You also have to design to run connected to an electrical system with no filtering, +/- 200v spikes aren't unknown on automotive power systems when things go wrong.

The roadbooks are still used because they use really simple components and mostly work, motors are pretty tough . Luck getting anything like an off the shelf phone/netbook/tablet to survive.

It is doable, but you'll probably have to roll your own from the ground up. All the bits are available now at least.

Pete

Panasonic just launched their Android Toughbooks:

http://www.panasonic.com/business/toughpad/US/secure-tablet-specs.asp#

Expect any of them to cost a few thousand. Assuming they would withstand the abuse of an off-road handlebar mount, everything you would run on them would have to be bug proof.

The Trippy thing is being used by the assistance Dakar teams, but I don't believe will see complex electronic roadbooks on races like Rallye Raids in the near future. JMHO

It appears as there is some (small) amount of interest. Maybe it is worh pursuing such a project after all. The toughest task is finding an approprate LCD that will handle strong vibrations and not crack, plus it must be heat proof. Some of the guys that have already run the ERTF GPS before (Matt ) will know that the contrast will drastically change with warmer weather, making the LCD near unreadable. Direct sunlight readability (even when not really hot) is another concern. Graphics LCD don't really have the best properties for these matters, but maybe something new has come out recently?

It shouldn't be a problem to make something that shows your COG (course over ground) and an arrow when within a selectable radius of the waypoint. Stuff like a roadbook function is way too complicated, get a Tripy for that instead! Perhaps the casing of the unit can be made to exactly fit the now obsolete ERTF GPS holder...

As for running a tablet PC, I wouldn't do that. Who knows how "rallye" proof they are? Plus the touchscreen interface is useless with gloves on. Anyway, who want a 10" LD infront of them.

I'll see what I can cook up in my free time

Hi Tony How is Mr Schattat senior!
Don't think it's much help but Boundsy took this with him when he rode his bike up Everest last year!:eek1
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.190153064401403.47634.142833449133365&type=3
http://www.blackdeserttraining.com

I was waiting for you to chime in. Nice!!

Nice, looks great

Hiya Barrie!
Herr Schattat is doing good, he's in Nouakchott in Mauritania somewhere for the time being

You plan on planting that laptop on your bike as an entire cockpit replacement?

Yeah! Just sit there on my Renazco playing the ASO 'Virtual Rally Game'! As long as I have WiFi!
http://www.virtualrallygame.com/

What I'm aiming for might be different than what you're thinking. Mine will have no screen (just LEDs). My original focus was to solve the hazard problem of bikes and cars on the same course at the same time. It was motivated by bikes getting run over by cars in Baja racing (and to some degree the same problem in Dakar). As things progressed I found a bunch of other things I could do to aid in safety, race management, and some really cool new stuff I won't talk about. But I'm staying away from the whole screen issue. For Baja racing, currently available GPS units work fine. For rally, it's really hard and overly expensive to try to beat the simplicity, reliability, readability, and "mark-up-ability" of paper. I have out-of-the-box ideas about how to augment the roadbook with my device, but I'm not trying to replace the current paper system.

I concluded the rally market was too small to justify what I'm doing. Baja and similar Western USA desert racing is pretty big, making the market more attractive. So I'm doing my best to make something that would be attractive to both markets at a reasonable price.

Here's an old image of what I'm working on. More recently I've added a bunch of features that are not shown here. I'm well along with the packaging. Everything else is captured in a 60 page specification, but not implemented yet. I've got a great circuit block diagram, most of the key chips are selected, and I've done a very rough circuit board layout sketch (fit check). But the schematic, circuit board, and especially the software do not exist yet.

If you're an expert Eagle schematic capture and layout guy, then maybe we should talk!

I know nothing about Rally electronics but I build boats for a living so I am sort of familiar with marine electronics. We are a Garmin dealer and I have done a tech course on their newish models. Their (and I am sure many other brands too) new touchscreens feature new technology that make them a lot more durable, scratch proof, waterproof, sunlight readable, and user friendly. You can blast a high pressure hose directly at the screen without moving the cursor yet a light finger touch with a wet, fish slime covered finger will move it accurately. It can take a beating too, the rep will bash his keys into the screen with great force if some body asks about damaging the screen.

The screens also accept NMEA2000 data which we can use to get engine data from the ECU or via analogue adaptors as well as GPS data and chartplotter data.

What I am thinking some of this technology may filter down to be used on bike (and car) rally nav equipment. The GPS and Chartplotter stuff is a given but any engine data (EFI) could also be used as well as any other data you could think of. I am thinking Sentinal type system (maybe using current AIS technology in part). You could also use the DSC technology for communications.

To get around the gloves thing could you sew in a stylus type thing into the tips the fingers of the gloves?

Any of these ideas any good for a rally type set up?

What model GPS do you use? Schatt makes gps repeaters compatible with several models. You could set "proximity alarms" (accessible in some of the marine type GPS's, I think my old GPS176 has it) for the WP's. I don't think it would guide you in, per se, but I think once they activate it shows you distance to the mark.

I know you want to do it "right", but if that doesn't turn out to be feasible, you could get much of the effect as mentioned above.

Ok... time for 2013 rumors and rules...

Troy.. please ( I know you already know) fill us in (the short version) on the new rules on cars.. toyota hi lux's are in.. how bout a Tundra V8? Is it going to be a "stock" production only car class or what?

Watch for more Americans next year!

The BAJA HDS5 by Lowrance what is used by racers in the know..

What do you make of the shipping with a Lima start?

I also heard a rumor that Lima would be the start for next years race.