Rally Navigator - Create Rally Roadbooks with Mapbox and GPS

DaveRMS · Oct 8, 2013

beechum1 said: ↑

This came up this weekend while we were marking up our rolls at colonet. Ned mentioned that two tulips with a Δ of say a few tenths, this recommendation would have been much more convenient.
Click to expand...

You CAN enter text, just not in the middle cell yet. So, choosing to NOT include text just because it's not in the middle is not a great call. With the software "as-is" you can write (using the Baja Rally example):

"Exit wash for 100m then re-enter wash"

Then while marking the roadbook you could make your own annotation.

I'm not making excuses for not having the feature, but just saying that not having it perfect isn't an excuse for not including the correct information either.

Dave

Bluebull2007 · Oct 8, 2013

beechum1 said: ↑

This came up this weekend while we were marking up our rolls at colonet. Ned mentioned that two tulips with a Δ of say a few tenths, this recommendation would have been much more convenient.
Click to expand...

Yip. Describing what the route should look like is not equal to a 1,000 words so its all about the tulip IMO.

Dave, its a revolutionary product - we are just trying to improve on that, and there is no harm in that....apart form hours and hours of programming probably!

I was once heavily involved with some 3D mining software development and adapting it based on feedback from the engineers that have to use it everyday was a critical factor that ultimately lead the company to taking the market by storm. Software development is a process that does not stop, but with time makes a very comprehensive and powerful product that becomes more valuable, also with time. Obviously a balanced approach is also important, or you can end up with something that is more difficult and cumbersome to use!

Beechum: Now that I have used this product for a couple of longish stages, I have been thinking about a couple other things that might be worth taking a look at:

Sometimes its very hard/impossible to fit the shape of the road using just the three editable points and one fixed one that is allocated to each tulip. The ability to insert a fifth point would solve these situation and allow for more complex looking tulips. Not sure how hard this would be to do? Perhaps the way to do it is to edit the bottom part of the main route (from the dot up to the middle), by simply dragging the middle part of the tulip (top of the line circled in yellow below):

It would be great if the all the pictures that are dragged and dropped were defaulted to 80% of their current size, it would speed up the editing required in very cluttered tulips.

The option to choose km versus miles still shows miles in the left column (albeit in small writing), any chance of dropping that out?

Cheers!

Neil

DaveRMS · Oct 8, 2013

Neil, can you show us a pic of what you want the tulip to look like in your yellow example? I am having trouble visualizing it.

BTW, I agree with the text-in-tulip suggestion.

We also have an "upload custom tulip/icon" feature in the pipeline. That will handle all the edge cases.

Dave

Bluebull2007 said: ↑

Yip. Describing what the route should look like is not equal to a 1,000 words so its all about the tulip IMO.

Dave, its a revolutionary product - we are just trying to improve on that, and there is no harm in that....apart form hours and hours of programming probably!

I was once heavily involved with some 3D mining software development and adapting it based on feedback from the engineers that have to use it everyday was a critical factor that ultimately lead the company to taking the market by storm. Software development is a process that does not stop, but with time makes a very comprehensive and powerful product that becomes more valuable, also with time. Obviously a balanced approach is also important, or you can end up with something that is more difficult and cumbersome to use!

Beechum: Now that I have used this product for a couple of longish stages, I have been thinking about a couple other things that might be worth taking a look at:

Sometimes its very hard/impossible to fit the shape of the road using just the three editable points and one fixed one that is allocated to each tulip. The ability to insert a fifth point would solve these situation and allow for more complex looking tulips. Not sure how hard this would be to do? Perhaps the way to do it is to edit the bottom part of the main route (from the dot up to the middle), by simply dragging the middle part of the tulip (top of the line circled in yellow below):

It would be great if the all the pictures that are dragged and dropped were defaulted to 80% of their current size, it would speed up the editing required in very cluttered tulips.

The option to choose km versus miles still shows miles in the left column (albeit in small writing), any chance of dropping that out?

Cheers!

Neil
Click to expand...

Bluebull2007 · Oct 12, 2013

DaveRMS said: ↑

Neil, can you show us a pic of what you want the tulip to look like in your yellow example? I am having trouble visualizing it.

BTW, I agree with the text-in-tulip suggestion.

We also have an "upload custom tulip/icon" feature in the pipeline. That will handle all the edge cases.

Dave
Click to expand...

Hi Dave - Sorry it was a bad example tulip, all I wanted to suggest is to be able edit the (straight vertical in this case) line segment by the optoinal addition of two more edit points; this which would accommodate to much more complex "main route" in your tulip diagram if need be, but without upsetting or over complicating things too much. I believe the current setup is a really good and simple editing tool/functionality you have (the segment above the yellow circle).

I know that if you click and drag the dot at the bottom, the whole tulip moves. This is great and should not be changed, but nothing happens if you click on the "corner" in my example tulip (top of yellow circle). Imagine if you were to click there or on that fixed vertical segment and two more editable points below popped into view for making a really complex shape?

What I'm saying is that a lot of time you would not need to use this, and the default 4 points above the vertical bit would be more than enough, but there is the odd occasion where you have say a D/G though say, a gate, followed immediately by another sharp D. The number of points you have to generate this is too limited, and I think a few words like "D after Gate" on the RHS is not enough. The problem is having too many points available each time you create tulip would make it onerous (you really dont want to edit more points than necessary), but in the event that you did need additonal points on the main route, if one were to click on the (normally) vertical line segment at the bottom it would be really cool to have three more points to play with (including the original 'corner' point.

Clear as mud now? If you still don't understand let me know and I will make a series of pics for ya.

Uller · Oct 12, 2013

BlueBull2007,

I believe I understand what you are explaining and that what you desire is already available in the Premium Version.

From this post: http://advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21976318&postcount=279

Premium Version - Detailed Tulips, Icons, Headings

Print Roadbooks with Complete Tulips and Navigation Icons

Show and Hide CAP Headings and GPS Coordinates for each Waypoint

Create Rally Route From Imported GPX tracks

Utilization of Google Earth Roads & Routing Function - Snap Track to Road

Support for Continuous Roll Print Output

Import Captured GPX Tracks Over Existing Routes to Correct Route After Pre-run

Export GPX Tracks of Routes to GPS Units for Pre-Running

Free Version Printing - Basic Info Only

Bluebull2007 · Oct 12, 2013

I have the premium version, and no, its not.

Uller · Oct 12, 2013

Bluebull2007 said: ↑

I have the premium version, and no, its not.
Click to expand...

Please pardon my misunderstanding.

GTinAus · Oct 13, 2013

Hi

pardon my interruption, but I have been trialling Rally Navigator, Premium version for a couple of weeks.

I am the Clerk of the Course for a fairly major Australian Rally/Raid event for Autos and Motos (Condo750, do a search in the Australian Forum)

I was interested in using the the Pro Version (commercial), for the scrolls for the next years event. I would like to make the tulips more professional, by a program such as this .

I have been talking to Mike, via email for the last few days, and explained my dilemma as to this program.

Perhaps if I list some of the problems here as well, there may be some useful solutions.

Firstly...The total distance needs to be editable, why, because, our event uses ground truthing, ie the event is set in a vehicle , with a terratrip, and hand drawn instructions (ie not from Google Earth, but this is a handy feature, for overall terrain checking).
To put in extra points, eg, rocks, holes gutters, at the present, a point needs to be inserted, at approx. the right spot, then dragged up or down the string line, till the correct distance is registered, them a tulip drawn. Tedious when there are hundreds of them.

A couple of my biggest bugbears are, 1, you need the internet, it is not a stand alone program, and you do not always need to have google earth attached, a layover of a moving map program as an either/or would be really good (Oziexplorer).... and I do not always have access to the internet.

2. Printing. The program, as it stands, appears to only allow 1 section. We have several sections per day, both Liaison and selective, and the day's instructions are completely printed on 2 (sometimes 3) scrolls.

The finish of one section, and the start of the next follow smoothly on the scroll (without the disclaimer statement). There are usually 2 (sometimes 3) scrolls per day, and they usually are 20 to 30 metres in length.

Below is an example of the end of a section, and start of new section, from last year,

The way the system stands, the sections would be have to be taped together, or dozens of scrolls printed and issued.

In reality, the scrolls cannot be changed after every section, as time does not permit.

Add to the fact, there can be up to 80 competitors, means 2 scrolls per day each (or more), times 2 days, 320 scrolls in total....in the current setup it appears one scroll to be printed at once. (our current scrolls are printed on a roll 6 wide, and cut into individual rolls after printing (individual section scrolls, there would be thousands of them....confusion would reign supreme).

Also, scrolls must be given to competitors, with the start of the day, or section, on the outside, which means the scroll must be printed from the last instruction to the first, to end up the right way, without a lot of rewinding. There appears to be no way of doing this either.

Don't get me wrong, the concept is fantastic, but to be a good COMMERCIAL route chart maker, it needs a lot of work, and input from professional directors, as to what is required versus what is viable.

I look forward to some constructive discussion on points raised.

DaveRMS · Oct 13, 2013

Hi

Mike and I received your email. We have been away racing ourselves. You have a number of requests--some universally appealing, some specific to your own preferences. I'd say the most productive way to move forward is to have a conversation with Mike and I about what we can tackle. We have 3 commercial rallies using the software successfully. We model after Dakar and FIM specs mostly.

Dave

GTinAus said: ↑

Hi

pardon my interruption, but I have been trialling Rally Navigator, Premium version for a couple of weeks.

I am the Clerk of the Course for a fairly major Australian Rally/Raid event for Autos and Motos (Condo750, do a search in the Australian Forum)

I was interested in using the the Pro Version (commercial), for the scrolls for the next years event. I would like to make the tulips more professional, by a program such as this .

I have been talking to Mike, via email for the last few days, and explained my dilemma as to this program.

Perhaps if I list some of the problems here as well, there may be some useful solutions.

Firstly...The total distance needs to be editable, why, because, our event uses ground truthing, ie the event is set in a vehicle , with a terratrip, and hand drawn instructions (ie not from Google Earth, but this is a handy feature, for overall terrain checking).
To put in extra points, eg, rocks, holes gutters, at the present, a point needs to be inserted, at approx. the right spot, then dragged up or down the string line, till the correct distance is registered, them a tulip drawn. Tedious when there are hundreds of them.

A couple of my biggest bugbears are, 1, you need the internet, it is not a stand alone program, and you do not always need to have google earth attached, a layover of a moving map program as an either/or would be really good (Oziexplorer).... and I do not always have access to the internet.

2. Printing. The program, as it stands, appears to only allow 1 section. We have several sections per day, both Liaison and selective, and the day's instructions are completely printed on 2 (sometimes 3) scrolls.

The finish of one section, and the start of the next follow smoothly on the scroll (without the disclaimer statement). There are usually 2 (sometimes 3) scrolls per day, and they usually are 20 to 30 metres in length.

Below is an example of the end of a section, and start of new section, from last year,

The way the system stands, the sections would be have to be taped together, or dozens of scrolls printed and issued.

In reality, the scrolls cannot be changed after every section, as time does not permit.

Add to the fact, there can be up to 80 competitors, means 2 scrolls per day each (or more), times 2 days, 320 scrolls in total....in the current setup it appears one scroll to be printed at once. (our current scrolls are printed on a roll 6 wide, and cut into individual rolls after printing (individual section scrolls, there would be thousands of them....confusion would reign supreme).

Also, scrolls must be given to competitors, with the start of the day, or section, on the outside, which means the scroll must be printed from the last instruction to the first, to end up the right way, without a lot of rewinding. There appears to be no way of doing this either.

Don't get me wrong, the concept is fantastic, but to be a good COMMERCIAL route chart maker, it needs a lot of work, and input from professional directors, as to what is required versus what is viable.

I look forward to some constructive discussion on points raised.
Click to expand...

RenoMoto · Oct 13, 2013

Hello:

Thanks for the detailed feedback - that's how we keep improving Rally Navigator.

I have answered a few of your points inline below...IN BOLD

GTinAus said: ↑

Firstly...The total distance needs to be editable, why, because, our event uses ground truthing, ie the event is set in a vehicle , with a terratrip, and hand drawn instructions (ie not from Google Earth, but this is a handy feature, for overall terrain checking).
To put in extra points, eg, rocks, holes gutters, at the present, a point needs to be inserted, at approx. the right spot, then dragged up or down the string line, till the correct distance is registered, them a tulip drawn. Tedious when there are hundreds of them.

We have considered including manually dropped GPS waypoints as part of the route when importing a GPX file to create a route - I think its technically doable and mileages would be quite accurate. This would be a help when marking Waypoint items that aren't visible on the Google Earth view.

A couple of my biggest bugbears are, 1, you need the internet, it is not a stand alone program, and you do not always need to have google earth attached, a layover of a moving map program as an either/or would be really good (Oziexplorer).... and I do not always have access to the internet.

We haven't made any progress YET in running an offline version of Rally Navigator, but I do understand your desire to use our interface for a manual roadbook editor. This would also require local saving, which is also possible.

2. Printing. The program, as it stands, appears to only allow 1 section. We have several sections per day, both Liaison and selective, and the day's instructions are completely printed on 2 (sometimes 3) scrolls.

I like the idea of linking multiple racing and transit stages into one days route file. Would something like this junky mock-up do the trick:

It could trigger off of the Checkered Flag Icon, anytime more points are added to a route after the Checkered Flag Icon is used in a Waypoint, it would insert this header, reset the mileage to Zero and start a new stage. Sound good??

The finish of one section, and the start of the next follow smoothly on the scroll (without the disclaimer statement). There are usually 2 (sometimes 3) scrolls per day, and they usually are 20 to 30 metres in length.

Below is an example of the end of a section, and start of new section, from last year,

The way the system stands, the sections would be have to be taped together, or dozens of scrolls printed and issued.

In reality, the scrolls cannot be changed after every section, as time does not permit.

Add to the fact, there can be up to 80 competitors, means 2 scrolls per day each (or more), times 2 days, 320 scrolls in total....in the current setup it appears one scroll to be printed at once. (our current scrolls are printed on a roll 6 wide, and cut into individual rolls after printing (individual section scrolls, there would be thousands of them....confusion would reign supreme).

When producing Roadbooks for an event, I save them as PDF files and take them to my printer, they layout the files 6 across a 36 inch wide roll feed printer.

How are you cutting your scrolls to width?

Also, scrolls must be given to competitors, with the start of the day, or section, on the outside, which means the scroll must be printed from the last instruction to the first, to end up the right way, without a lot of rewinding. There appears to be no way of doing this either.

My commercial printer can configure the print job to produce the files "head out" or "tail out" whichever I specify.

Don't get me wrong, the concept is fantastic, but to be a good COMMERCIAL route chart maker, it needs a lot of work, and input from professional directors, as to what is required versus what is viable.

I look forward to some constructive discussion on points raised.
Click to expand...

Again, thanks for the feedback.

The_Italian · Nov 12, 2013

Good Morning inmates.

Mr Mike,
I tried to get in touch with you a couple of times with no luck.
I was part of the beta testing team since the start.
I would be interested in buying a licence and supporting you but I would need you to reply to my emails.
My name is Enrico.
can you please try to have a look in your mailbox ?

thanks
Enrico

homerj · Nov 12, 2013

homerj said: ↑

Dave, not sure if you remember talking about this at the So Co Roadbook Ride, but the ability to add an entry to the roadbook portion of the program and manually enter the mileage would be handy esp after a pre run. It would allow the RB author to add a gate, or a wash out or whatever w.o having to find the precise spot on the track inside RN.
Click to expand...

DaveRMS said: ↑

He's talking between tulips. Say you have tulips at 10 and 12 miles. Then while pre-running you find a wash out (danger) at 11.35 miles. It can be difficult to add a new track handle at exactly 11.35 miles. Especially if the track has many trackpoints between the two waypoints.

I imagine that it's easier to type "11.35" and let the computer figure out where on the track that is.

Dave
Click to expand...

I've been using RN almost every weekend and it is friggin fantastic. Thank you guys so much for putting this out there for us.

Has there been any movement on inserting tulips indepent of the track points in GE?

Rallye On!

RenoMoto · Nov 13, 2013

Inmates:

Regarding HomerJ's request...short answer, NO. We haven't made any headway on inserting WP along an existing route at a specific distance.

However: on our short list of feature development is the ability to include manually dropped GPS Waypoints within a GPX route file when importing a route into Navigator. As you ride along, simply drop a Waypoint in your GPS at a specific location (a ditch or road intersection) and that Waypoint will be automatically included in the route when it opens in Navigator as part of the GPX Import.

Sort of achieves the same thing, you just have to gather the Waypoint locations in the field before importing them to Navigator.

Other stuff on our short list:

Narrow Format Dual Sport Roll Charts - 2 inches wide

Ability to "Show or Hide" the roadbook image to open up more screen real estate to the Map image

Advancing Waypoints with the arrow keys

Ability to Delete multiple Track Points

Processing credit cards

Facebook and Google log-in

Alright - now we will see how all of that comes together.

While I have you - is anybody still having trouble saving routes??

Any other feature requests??

Thanks for the feedback so far - it appreciated!

88NX250 · Nov 13, 2013

Bluebull2007 said: ↑

Thanks Buddy.

Well I have downloaded Google chrome and will see how it goes. I found the save function froze as well, and I lost a lot of WP's. Hopefully it will go better now on GC.

EDIT: Both the saving and the dotted line for HP work on GC. So I can confirm that using IE10 is not recommended.
Click to expand...

Can you guys add this to the FAQ page? I am an IE user as well and this skunked me the first time I tried to save.

Otherwise this is AMAZING so far! Thanks guys!

-Iain

RenoMoto · Nov 13, 2013

Inmates:

Navigator runs best of Firefox on PC and Chrome on Mac.

http://www.rallynavigator.com/optimize_your_system

Optimize Your System for Rally Navigator - Firefox and Google Earth

Get the New Firefox with IPC Control OFF

Google Earth speed test and more info

This speed test issues a number of Google Earth plugin API calls for every frame drawn. The number of frames per second is a measure on how fast this is done.

Rally Navigator may make thousands of calls per second to the Google Earth plugin. This is called "Inter Process Communication" IPC for short. If each of those calls takes a tiny amount longer you immediately suffer massive performance penalties.

Turn off IPC Control to the Google Earth Plug In

Type "about:config" into your address bar, you'll get to a page with a lot of settings. Find the line for "dom.ipc.plugins.enabled =true" and toggle it to "false". Restart your browser and Firefox will run 3-5 times faster!
A modern computer with IPC off should be 40-60 frames per second

Hope that helps!

Yellow Pig · Nov 14, 2013

I just used RN to set up a nice DS loop of Utah.

The software is so good that I prefer using it to create GPX tracks for my GPS than the shitty Garmin Base Camp crap.

Happe · Nov 19, 2013

Hiya,

we are just in Holiday trip preparation mode and start sharing routes.
Can I save a route a friend shared with me and edit it as my own in Premium?

cu
Stefan

RenoMoto · Jan 16, 2014

[FONT=&quot]Howdy!

The Rally Navigator Development Team has been working away in our Top Secret Underground Rally Bunker!

New Feature: FIM/FIA Navigation Notes.

Very cool and a nice step towards making Dakar quality roadbooks.

HUGE Thanks to Jeremy B. (Beechum1) for creating these Icons and Dave at Rally Management Services for the help getting this all together.

More stuff on the way soon. As usual, I look forward to feedback and questions.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Log in and check it out! www.rallynavigator.com[/FONT]
[/FONT]

12Bong13 · Jan 17, 2014

As a suggestion, would it be possible in the futur to buy a upgrade license that would give you full access to all the option that the program has per roadbook that you make?
I find that the free version does not have enough info on it.

For example, I plan on making 1 maybe 2 roadbooks next summer. I would really like to use the full program, but I am not sure I will use it enough to warrant the 50$ upgrade.
I would not mind paying a little extra to get the full version per roadbook though.

Thanks

Adalift · Jan 17, 2014

Hey Renomoto,
Damn you site rocks, had a little play earlier and found it pretty simple to use. I tried to register but it wouldn't let me join, am being a dumbass?

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