Oscilliscope Traces - OEM & Series style Regulator R/R project

Jack has a "day job" that helps pay the bills, but i have found him to be very responsive. He accepts phone calls in the evening (it says on his website, but I think he's on west coast).

I guess I never posted it, but the voltage on my system is now ~14.1V and very stable with RPM and load ... seeming to only vary about +/- .05V but that is a sample size of "one" ....

14.1 is a little lower that I would prefer to hear of, assuming your battery is in good condition of course, may email Jack and ask more, he may be able to ask for it to be increased for Lithium

Battery is Deka, about 1 yr old and in good shape.

Compared to what I was getting from my early vintage OEM R/R I'm pretty happy ....

and ... yeah, I get the impression that CE makes this unit for Jack specifically and maybe a few other distributors, so perhaps it could be modified....

I appreciate your efforts also JR, as well as lots of others. I ordered one of the vr's from Jack also. My '09 is still charging with a little over 48,000 miles on the stock setup, so it will be interesting to see how much farther it will make it.
Thanks again to all who make this little world go around

Christi

Do I remember correctly that in addition to speculation about noise the other objection to a series type RR was it's failure mode? That a shunt type when it fails fails 'closed' while the series type might fail 'open' and pass unregulated current into the bike's electrical system?

Do I mis-remember, mis-understand, or is this still a concern?

There are pluses and minuses to each type

A Shunt regulator can fail with
1/ The switching element short circuit and short out the Stator so no output (rare but can damage a stator)
2/ The switching element open circuit and so full unregulated voltage goes to the battery (normal failure mode)

A series pass regulator can fail with
1/ The switching element short circuit and deliver full unregulated voltage to the battery (rare)
2/ The switching element open circuit and so no voltage goes to the battery (normal failure mode)

There can be other failure modes but they are the basics and most common/likely

OK, that's reassuring. The "normal failure mode" for the series type RR sounds quite benign.

Wayne:
Can we talk about this for a minute ....

I think understand the concept of the "full unregulated voltage" ...
But don't have a schematic handy for the series style regulator...

With either design would it be the case that the "bad" failure mode would feed pulsing DC power (rectified output from the stator) into the battery and electrical system with a voltage somewhat proportionaly to RPM?

Which might be as high as say ... 75V ??? ... It's hard for me to visualize the effect the battery would have in acting as a large capacitor ... or if it even would act as a large capacitor to damp the peak voltages?

Since the voltage issue is a potential failure mechanism for either design (more common on one than the other ... but still) Would you think that our German engineering friends have an electrical system design includes some protection for sensitive circuitry ... a pair of zener diodes or perhaps something more clever ... or are we left to cope?

The open circuit voltage from the Stator can be 75v but when the battery is connected, the output from the stator is "loaded" down to around 16 to 18v.

The stator is 3 phase, ie 3 separate windings producing voltage at different times. The battery acts as a capacitor smoothing what ever pulses or "ripple" remains after regulation

With these modern regulators there is no rectifier, simply 3 switching elements, one per phase of the stator

In the case of a series pass regulator the switching elements turn off when voltage rises above the preset voltage (14.4v)

In the case of the shunt regulator the switching elements turn on and shorts the individual phase to earth until the voltage comes down below the preset

The electronics such as the ECU all have rugged voltage regulation internally to protect from over voltage and any noise or residual ripples in the electrical system, this is the only clever thing in there. The processors run at 5v internally (Motorola 68000 on the BMS)

One of our F650 single crew blew an FH012 VR recently and has a volt meter, he saw 18v max but there may have been short duration peaks above that. I have seen 16.5v when the stock VR has overheated and shut down on mine

The OEM's have been reluctant to go to series pass VR's as the full current passes through the switch element and the most common failure is to go open circuit hence no charging and you are left stranded whereas with a shunt VR in a failure you still have an output charging the battery even though the voltage is high and hence you have a limp home mode (hoping the electronics is not damaged)

been watching your thread on series R/R with interest. found this little jewel from your link.

just ordered for $24 .. an LED over/under charge indicator.

an absolute necessity when using LiFePO4 batteries. especially when used with permanent magnet charging systems. where there's a potential for slugging your tiny AH LiFePO4 battery with 30+ amps if regulator should ever fail the wrong way.

a similar thing happens when using too small LiFePO4. typical lithium battery mfg listings recommends way too small AH capacity. besides starting bike, a battery acts like a capacitor smoothing out loads. to do this battery needs to be within actual AH parameters specified by mfg.

due to mumbo jumbo used by LiFePO4 mfg a 5AH actual LiFePO4 battery becomes an 18AH lead acid equivalent. well your charging system slugs real amps at your battery, the same way all your electrics on your bike uses real amps.

low internal resistance is why a tiny AH LiFePO4 battery are able deliver huge amps disproportional to their actual AH capacity. during bulk phase of charging li-ion batteries will attempt to swallow all the amps you throw at it. result could result in battery heating up hot enough to melt case.

modern motorcycles with all their high tech features uses a tiny draw even when parked. BMW motorcycle have the worst parasitic drain .. say a 14AH actual AGM gets replaced with a 5AH actual LiFePO4. a few months sitting your 5AH LiFePO4 could get drained.

after starting if say you've got a 720watt output like BMW R1200 .. less over head wattage.. your tiny 5AH LiFePO4 will get slammed with 37amps...

let me know if I'm getting too off topic ... but parts of above really does relate to your R/R and permanent magnet charging systems.

A VR failure does not dump a LIFEPO with 30+ amps, the current is determined by the load

As for the LIFEPO's they handle high charging currents well where a conventional Lead Acid does not

Wayne, I think you have that backward: LeadAcid batteries DO tolerate high charge rates, where-as Lithium batteries explodewhen overcharged.

No, check the specs on LIFEPO, they are designed to charge in a short period using high currents, that is what is needed for electric vehicles which is where their main usage is

Lead Acid optimum rates are 1/10 of rated AH capacity, they dont like high current charging

that depends on failure mode of regulator .. danger of permanent magnet charging systems if they put out full amps pretty much over idle. and yes if LiFePO4 battery is low they will easily swallow 30+ amps.

LiFePO4 batteries are li-ion but of a different chemistry from lithium cobalt used in Boeing 787. LiFePO4 has to be abused wildly to catch on fire ... like say charging at 39v at 30+ amps for an extended time period.

think water through a pipe.... voltage = pressure ... current = flow

if/when your regulator fails in wrong mode with stator still putting at max current .. depending on rpm 18v+ volts could be slammed into battery. 18v+ will push current into a fully charged battery .. LiFePO4 or lead acid with not good results.

apologies to OP .. did not mean to take this thread off topic ...

Thanks Wayne!

18V is lots better than 75V...

I'm even happier now with my decision to switch to the series R/R.
I have a voltage monitor installed:

http://f800riders.org/forum/showthr...g-Battery-Voltage-Monitor-amp-amp-GPS-adapter

and I guess I'll just go with it ........... trade-offs everywhere....

_CY_

Add resistance into your flow analogy

With a failed VR and full voltage to the battery/load the only current which flows is determined by the resistance of the load ie the electrical system
I (current) = V (Voltage) / R (Resistance)

yup that's correct ... but at voltages put out by an unregulated stator will exceed any resistance put up by either lead acid or LiFePO4.

ALL charging systems designed to support PB puts out 13.8v to 14.2v range. specific models will deviate from those parameters, but not by much.

12v LiFePO4 motorcycle batteries reaches full charge at 14.6v ... after resting overnight will drop to about 14.25v .. with cell balancing about 13.85v range.

a PB AGM resting voltage is about 12.6v to 12.8v range and doesn't like being charged over 14.8v.

lower voltages pushes amps into PB slower same as LiFePO4.

let's say both PB and LiFePo4 are fully charged, at 14.2v .. current is still getting pushed into PB but not LiFePO4. during bulk phase of charging both chemistries will accept a higher rate of charge. with LiFePO4 due to low internal resistance, swallowing all the amps you throw at it. too high and LiFePO4 will overheat. then as either battery gets closer to full... amps absorbed will slow depending on voltage delivered at.

say a regulator has just failed with 18v+ voltage getting delivered to battery. that's enough volts to push current into any battery.. PB or LiFePO4... fully charged or not at 18v+ current is getting pushed into battery until failure.

this has gotten way too detailed for this thread ... need to continue this on my LiFePO4 battery testing thread. unless OP doesn't mind his thread getting hi-jacked...

Hi JR Wooden,,,,
Have there been any new developments with this up-grade????
Is the unit still functioning to your satisfaction?????
Do you know of any other members that are running a series style regulator????
I am planning on getting the same unit that you have, I have been in touch with Jack.
Last month I tried a Compufire from Powersports Superstore via Amazon. It arrived defective, I saw voltage spikes in excess of 15 volts upon installation and first firing up my bike but then the voltage stabilized@ around 13 at idle, let the bike finish warming up while donning my helmet and gloves, went for a test ride to the grocery store and saw voltages in excess of 15 volts at surface street cruising speed (approx. 3000 rpm) with all electrical loads switched on and High beam on.
Removed the Compufire and contacted the seller, they told me I had to deal direct with Compufire and gave me some telephone #'s. All I ever got was an answering machine and never got a call back, very poor customer support and I will never recommend a Compufire.
I am going to try the CE 605 from Jack, he answers messages and seems like a real good guy based on my limited contact with him.
However I am still looking to learn more about this and there do not seem to be as many reviews on the CE unit as the Compufire. Oddly enough, the Compufire had many rave reviews stating great solid performance.
Best Regards,
THUMPER>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

GH2:

I don't usually gush over vendors ... but I went with Jack for a couple reasons:

* he seemed very "invested" in what he was selling
* he was quick to answer my questions
* he said I could call him (evenings - he has a "day job") if I needed for help
* after watching the videos on his site I was convinced he was the real McCoy and knew WTF he was talking about ...
* most importantly ... he was the kind of entrepreneur that I felt I should financially support....

I should also mention that I thought his unit was a better mechanical fit into the loation of the OEM R/R then the CompuFire. ......

I've put about 5,000 more miles on the bike since I installed Jack's unit, and have had ZERO issues. I bought the bike new, and it now has ~35K miles total. I am tempted to pull the stator side-cover and see what the damn stator looks like but have so far resisted the dark side of the force.

Reaver would be proud

(Confession: I do have a side cover gasket in the garage).

Since installing it, I've not gone back for more oscilloscope testing, but can't imagine it has changed ... but I could be wrong.

I have a voltage monitor installed - documented here:

http://f800riders.org/forum/showthr...g-Battery-Voltage-Monitor-amp-amp-GPS-adapter

I'm sure would NOT catch any fast transient voltages to 15V, but would certainly let me know if the voltage regulation was defective for a longer period of time -- I've seen nothing on the monitor.

I could be a stupid dumb-ass dragging others down my path to failure, but so far I'm a very happy camper, and in my book Jack is a stand-up kick-ass guy.

If I ever get anywhere near Torrance, CA I'll take him out for dinner and some beers ...

caught in another thread .. almost 10k miles on with no issues with series type R/R. that's really good news for F8 folks .. bad news for Stator sales .. no wonder stator mfg earlier in this thread called series type R/R goofy.