Moto Guzzi Stelvio (merged) threadfest...

Fantastic design, eh? Over tighten a pinch bolt and your front wheel will break off mid-ride and fold your body into origami. Great. Does a torque wrench come in the tool kit, or does your warranty on your life expire if you have to put in a tube trail side without one?

And the bike already weighs like 600lbs....I'd prefer guzzi make the forks out of sheet steel.

I guess it's possible to make a bike that is totally beyond what one could do to screw it up, then you could bitch about the weight or the fact that the factory service manual was not included as part of the ECU. Let's call a spade a spade: someone grossly overtorqued the pinch bolts and caused this wreck. They must have gone well beyond what is reasonable since none of the other NTX's have had this problem. I never said 'fantastic design' but since it's the same design that is used on hundreds of other bikes it must not be too shabby. If you are putting a tube in your NTX tire, while on the side of the road, you are doing something wrong .... it's a tubeless tire. As for the 600 pounds, nope, the NTX comes in at about 616 and that's almost exactly what the benchmark GSA weighs with similar equipment. As for the torque wrench comment, common sense should be part of ownership of a motorcycle. This sport has its own inherent dangers. If you screw up the machinery there could be life threatening consequences. This is a good example of those consequences. Maybe you and your buddy need to reconsider your choice of sports, croquet might be a better choice.

Ah, typical forum bullshit.. Large groups of people in one place filling in blanks about what they think they know about an individual based on absolutely no information whatsoever. Even worse when they tend to be brand loyal because that makes them blind. Not a single one of you knows a thing about my integrity nor my qualifications and achievements yet I am full of shit. Well, there's actually a few here who know me. Also, some of you have made up your own facts about the circumstances involved. Hate to tell you that you are wrong in your assumptions, but you are.

But like I said, typical forum bullshit for certain people who apparently think that if you have more posts than another person on a forum you are somehow more qualified to give an opinion on certain things and have more credibility. Members with 5000 posts might be considered to be knowledgeable on a given subject. Members with 10000+ posts may be experts. Hmmm, the more posts, the more you know.

Yes, I did get my tires changed at the Toy Box in St. Johns. Yes, they sell BMWs. Oh, the horror!!! Someone heard right. But did you also hear that I pulled the torque specs out of the service manual for the guys to go by? Probably not. Yes, the service manual was on my laptop the whole trip so that even a non-Guzzi shop could help out on the road if needed. It's not rocket science, installing a wheel. Holy shit, they even put the tire on in the correct direction!!! Who'd have thunk someone who works on BMWs could do such a thing.

Did I ride the bike like a dirt bike and abuse it? Nah. I rode it like I would a GS, Super Ten, Tiger Exp or even a Multi. Dirt and gravel roads shouldn't be a big deal. Done that on HDs, Buells, Kawasaki race reps even. Did I not maintain it? It was a 2 month old bike. MPH did the first service. I did an oil change in N. Sydney, NS the afternoon before boarding the ferry. Simple stuff. Did you also know I had to tighten up the whole rear of the bike when I bought it? It turns out the rear subframe, upper shock mount and side luggage mounts were loosely assembled during the build but not fully tightened. Figured that one out the first ride. Downloaded the service manual and set to work torqueing everything to spec. No more floppy rear end.

People that know me, know that I'm not just a mechanical engineer of 20 years but one that started his own motorcycle performance part business and did well for 3 years until I got tired of not sleeping. All stemming from wanting parts for my race bikes that no one else made. I wasn't doing it for the money from the start and had no intention of doing something bigger than for my own personal needs. But I did build stuff for lots of people over the 3 years. They also know I was pretty successful at land speed racing, ok at road racing and less so at enduros due to there being plenty of people much faster than me and building the bikes I rode for their purpose. Not to mention, in my spare time, I maintain and repair bikes for quite a lot of people I know. Saves them money, work is done right and the guys get to hang out doing what guys need to do away from the wives...let loose.

Bikes aren't rocket science and you don't need 10000 posts on Advrider to be an expert on them. Internet searching and posting on forums is no substitute for real world experience.

The Guzzi, ahem, IMO, is the most unrefined bike I've ever ridden and it simply wasn't up to the task of a dirt and gravel road. BTW, the pinch bolts were torqued to the proper spec. Also, the break was a clean fracture on the left side at the bottom where the dropout and lower stanchion tube cylindrical feature fillet together and some tearing then deformation on the right side as a result of having to bear the load. Simply put, the part had a fatal flaw.

As for the luggage, they bounced off the buttons. The only thing holding them on is the locking mechanism. Unfortunately, you can rip them off with with your hands even locked on. The top case came off with the mounting plate. Can't stand those crappy finger plates that clamp around the square tubing back there. Poor design.

They could've done a better job. Don't give me that crap about Piaggio owning them meaning something. It means nothing. Guzzi does their own thing design wise. Beinig under the Piaggio umbrella doesn't automatically mean Guzzi is privy to all technology developed by Piaggio or Aprilia. The only thing it means is that Piaggio wants to streamline Guzzi operations to make them efficient, profitable and opens up the supplier chain and global market place for growth potential. They still have to design their own products.

To the brand loyalists: Get out and actually put some miles on something other than a Guzzi and you'll see just how unrefined they are. I tried it. I've been on better. Even 20 years ago.

Did you know the difference between Guzzi and BMW specs is only 0.6 lbs-ft? My professional engineering opinion is that if an extra 0.5 lbs-ft over ideal specification is all it takes to break something, the factor of safety is grossly underrated.

I'm also guessing you've never heard of a single person putting a tube inside a tire on a tubeless wheel before. A punctured carcass with a hole too large to patch is a good example of needing a tube to get you home. Lots of people have been doing this for years when necessary.

Torque wrench... why make the assumption torque wrenches aren't being used? Do you have factual evidence that one wasn't used? I guarantee you don't. I was hanging out with the guys doing the work and saw everything. They used one and they used the Guzzi specs from the service manual.

I guess you have no equal when it comes to all things mechanical. How dare anyone other than you attempt to do something and even think they can do it properly.:eek1 God forbid someone who works on BMWs attempt to work on a Guzzi. If it was a Yamaha tech, I'd hate to think what might have happened the minute the bike left the parking lot.

.....

(I'm not going to pick apart all this BS; move on already.)

You know, this right here shows you don't know much about the current crop of Guzzis.

All design is going on at Pontedera, the Piaggio facility. Piaggio has removed all R&D from Mandello del Lario, though production remains there.

Guzzi is a wholly-owned "brand" of Piaggio. It's not been a stand-alone company for several years, now.

Guzzi doesn't make the forks. Marzocchi does.

I have heard of a couple of failures on the earlier 50mm Marzocchi units. The failure is attributed to over-torquing. In one particular instance, PGA sent a replacement part.

X1Glider is the first I've heard of a failure on the 50mm unit. The fact that it happened after a dealership replaced a tire surely points to overtorquing, despite the claim that they had a manual for reference. We have no idea what kind of wrench was used, and if it was calibrated, and if it was even truly used.

-sm

X1Glider - sorry to hear of your crash. It certainly sounds like you did everything right and your analysis of the accident seems reasonable and thorough. Unfortunately, any manufactured part is potentially subject to flaws that might get missed in the QA process. It sounds like you had a perfect storm of failures on your bike.

A forensic engineer should be able to figure out the sequence of the failure. You doing the legwork to figure out what went wrong can only help everyone here. No one wants one of our inmates here to get hurt or killed by a similar failure. Please ignore the kool-aid drinkers and keep us informed of your findings. Maybe you should start a new thread about your accident. If nothing else, it will bring it to the attention of Piaggio and Marzocchi.

I really like the NTX, and would like to hear that it is durable. The reality is that bikes are being built less and less solidly as the manufacturers try to keep the weight down. I rented a Tiger XC a couple of months ago and was shocked by the crap panniers. They would be fine on a road bike but were totally unsuitable for off road use.

The 1150 GSA is a tank - sometimes that's a good thing, but sometimes not. I love mine but it is a lot of work chasing my friend's MS1200 on a twisty road.



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Long-time multiple Guzzi owner (and former employee) here; I also have a couple of Caponords (Aprilia - now just another Piaggio 'brand') - which have the fat-ass Marzocchi forks - not sure if they're the same spec as those on the Stelvio.
I snapped an axle-pinch bolt by making a (small) mistake in calibrating my torque wrench - should have trusted my uncalibrated right arm. The bolt broke - not the fork-leg.
However, as far back as the early 1980s, Guzzi had a poor rep for snapping the axle-pinch section of the fork leg/slider if the bolts were over-tightened. Affected models were the Le Mans 2 (Yanks would call it a CX100), LM3, SP, SPNT, 850T4, Convert, G5, etc.
I reckon we replaced dozens without the customer ever even knowing, plus a few others where the customer did know.
Don't think we ever lost anyone in a crash, but it was an internally well-known issue, one we were keen to keep quiet. Interesting that the problem hasn't gone away.
Having had at least one Guzzi in the house every single day since 1977 (right now, we're down to 4), would I buy a Stelvio? No - because it's not different enough to what I already have, to justify spending upwards of $10,000 more, just to get a new badge on the tank. But then I won't be buying the sad 1200 Caponord either - just another sit-up-and-beg image-bike for old people, like the Mono-Strada.
Would I buy another GS? No - I refuse to pay money to act as BMW's Product Development dept and can no longer afford and am unwilling to pay their parts-prices - not when better, more affordable machines are offered by other manufacturers, such as Triumph and Yamaha.
However, if Guzzi built a 650 - 750cc V-twin shaft-driven ADV bike with a 21" front wheel and a 32 litre tank, we'd have two ... Ooops, they already did: 25 years ago, the NTX models: too bad they don't make them now!

Yeah. A 750 NTX would be pretty kick ass...

Hope this doesn't turn into a pissing match but I am glad to read X1's rebuke. Altho I do not agree that this bike is a pos, I still wonder what the Hell is going on at the factory. I totally believe X1's reporting of the loose rear end bolts because, even tho I didn't have that, mine came with crushed plastic front mount tabs on the side panels, broken screw clips for said panels, missing header to head exhaust gaskets, three out of four header lock washers missing, misaligned body panels, chewed up mounting holes on the cover over the fuel pump and the list goes on. I 've had Redline tell me someone has had the exhaust apart and didn't put it back together properly, causing exhaust leaks but the original purchase shop/ service guys swear they didn't touch it. So, who do you believe? Quality control on vacation?
I also know in the past I have purchased quality, brand name torque wrenches that don't work right right out of the box. I've also gone back to my old belief that is torquing smaller bolts can get you into trouble and good old fashioned hand fell is the way to go there.
Still love the bike but the jury is still out for me now weather she is a keeper.

+2!

I was just thinking the same thing the other day and started looking for Quota's for sale! A modern day Quota or small-block NTX....Mmmmmm.





-SM

Rocker, I too have wondered about a 750 NTX. Although the newest version of the 750 only cranks out 51 hp it appears to be coupled with enough torque (42.8 ft lbs @ 5K rpm) to be a really fun bike. After all, my G650GS only puts out 50 hp and it does OK both on the highway and on mild off road stuff. The thumper is buzzy on the highway so I hesitate to take it for many 400 mile days. A mini-NTX, on the other hand, would have the smoothness of a Guzzi with at least as much torque as the thumper. I just wonder about the weight of this package, as well as how to make it cost competitive. The competition is getting pretty tough in the 700-800 cc adventure market. For $10K or less you have choices from Honda, BMW, Triumph, and others. They all weigh between 426 lbs and 502 lbs (Cycle World, Dec 2012) so the NTX should be no more than 500 lbs. without bags to be competitive. The new V7 Racer has a MSRP of $9990 so I'm guessing the NTX might be about the same price with less bling and without hard bags. Still, that's at the high end of weight and price for the market.

The current NTX is successful by making a complete bike (lots of things one would normally have to add via the options list, like crash bars, hard bags, driving lights, etc) at a price point that beats the competition. What I'm saying is that the 750 version really ought to do the same thing in the smaller capacity version but I can't see how the company can shave 125 lbs and $6K off by using the smaller engine and a slightly lighter frame. I'd like to hear other opinions.

Really sorry X1, you had the get off and I am thankful you didn't experience severe injury. I have an 09 Stelvio that I absolutely love. Yes, I do go out to my garage and just sit sometimes admiring this wonderful machine. I will say however that unless your bike (any bike) is not properly prepped before delivery you will have problems. My machine was not properly sorted when I purchased it. The prepping dealer will remain nameless. In 2010 I rode my Stelvio home the 180 miles from a Chicago freight depot, noticing within 45 miles my left boot was soaked with oil. Not much to do other than check the oil and find a remedy after I got home. It was a bad valve cover gasket overly tightened. I ended up hauling my machine up to Rosefarm Classics for repair. Jim was not the dealer I bought the bike from. He found valve cover bolts so over tightened the required drilling for removal, left cylinder head valve assembly was trashed by improper adjustment, over tightened valves, and numerous small issues which he found as he went over the bike. Interesting that he just marked the problems with scraps of masking tape so he wouldn't miss anything. (Many loose fasteners) It took two weeks to get everything repaired, the valve assembly being the largest problem. Piaggio did warrant everything. Pretty expensive repair on a new machine that was iimproperly set up before delivery. Just really piss poor initial service by a tech with a crowbar and crescent wrench machine. No problems since proper setup of my bike, zero; none of the issues you described, and I have ridden my bike off road some. I do concur with the above posts regarding the front wheel axle caps being "touchy" and fragile looking. About a year back I contacted Rosefarm Classics about my concern, and he said all of the failures he had seen where related to over torquing the bolts.

My two cents.

I think they could do exactly as you suggest. It wouldn't shave 125lbs off, but maybe 75lbs, but that's OK because if you add the skid plate, crash bars, bag mounts w/ bags, aux lights, etc., to any of the competition, just like with the Stelvio NTX, the competition will weigh as much or more.

Given all of the posts I've seen over the last 1-2 years with people asking for a smaller, lighter, 50/50 bike that can haul a ton of sh*t and not buzz like a chainsaw at highway speeds, I think it would sell well.

-SM

Excellent point re. proper setup and delivery. I was in a conversation with a well-known Guzzi mechanic and he claimed that he never had a bike come back for a failure on any bike he set up because he went over with a fine toothed comb before delivering it to the end customer.....and I have no reason to doubt him.

I had hoped that after several years of ownership by Piaggio the quality of the bikes coming off the line at Mandelo had been sorted. Knock on wood, but my bike's fit, finish, and overall quality has been outstanding ('12 NTX). Everything just works. I know it sounds stupid to point out things like accurate speedo, accurate fuel gauge, no oil leaks, not consuming oil, not leaking air from the wheels, etc, but other bikes I've purchased in the last 7-10 years have ALL suffered from these things (BMW, Ducati, etc). What I just don't understand is how so many people have reported their Stelvio NTX's to be rock solid performers (like mine) with zero problems, and others are getting out the flame throwers and claiming them to be total pieces of crap. Very odd.....

-SM

Maybe not so strange, and not very unlike the divided sentiments for the GS?

Just curious, did you crash on gravel or pavement on Translab? I had a weird crash on gravel there, hit a pothole filled with sand, the forks on my F8000GS dived too much, and both bike and I flipped. Happened within a split second. I never dared to go faster than 60MPH on the Translab gravel after that.