The F5 Bivouac (rallye raid news) and W2RC - World cross country rally championship

Discussion in 'Racing' started by PackMule, Dec 23, 2009.

  1. Bluebull2007

    Bluebull2007 Adventurer

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2008
    Oddometer:
    5,878
    Location:
    Honduras
    Here is a screen shot from the Eurosport footage of the top section of the climb.
    [​IMG]

    Here is the Google earth view.
    [​IMG]

    And here are the photos you can see from google earth of the mountain (of the bottom section).

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Freaking steep. :huh

    Yes this is where Patronelli rolled his quad down the mountain to oblivion and 15 something bikes went down the wrong canyon. Those guys all made it up this but got lost/went off the route later (canyongate incident), and some guys were not allowed to go up, arriving too late at the checkpoint just before this hill (I think it was CP3).


    Anyway all these pictures are quite unlike the one shown earlier, which is why I doubt it being representative of the climb. Having said that that, I doubt very much it was much easier than that shown in Riaan's photo, if anything it was harder because it is a sustained climb of over 1,200 vertical meters. It probably felt like Riaans photo! :lol2
  2. chavo_dakar_bolivia

    chavo_dakar_bolivia Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2011
    Oddometer:
    139
    Location:
    Bolivia
    Neil, I can assure you that is not the same climb on the photos with the trucks. Theres no way a truck could make it up. On the other side, or downside yes, there were trucks when I went by, but it was after the long steep, trial like climb. I know this because I was there for 30 minutes after 2 attempted and failed climbs. I really looked around to find an easier way and no luck. After regaining my breathe and energy, after a 15 minute rest , I made it up on the 3rd try. I think only 2 or 3 quads made it, the others took a different route indicted by organization. Same with bikes, only about 40 bikes made it up.
  3. Bluebull2007

    Bluebull2007 Adventurer

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2008
    Oddometer:
    5,878
    Location:
    Honduras
    Thanks for the clarification Chavo. So you are saying it really was like it in Riaan's photo? Perhaps it was the spur on the left hand side (on the Google earth pic).

    Hectic!
  4. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente f5ree sub-zero agent

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2005
    Oddometer:
    46,860
    Location:
    "Swednavia" - f5ederation of Scandwegia
    My google foo qualifications are nowhere near the fourth dan black belt levels of yourself or HogWild... but I have browsed the odd topographical map in my time, and if I relate Riaan's photo to the 3-D google earth image that you posted (the one with the red line indicating the route), I come to same conclusion as youirself - that it is the short spur/ridge at the very top of the range - top left of the google earth 3-D image; about a third from the left.

    That's a tough climb for a rally-moto or a quad for sure, but they did say all along that 2013 was going to be a lot tougher/technical than previous editions. This in reply perhaps to the claims made in some circles, that recent editions of DAKAR (2009 to 2012) had lost the "teeth" that the traditional Dakar (in Afrika) once posessed.

    Well the delivered that in spades!

    Regardless of the SS3/ canyongate issue (there is still a degree of "debate" as to just how official the "official" giving the alleged "wrong directions" was) and the considerations as to who completed the course, did not complete the course or were not permitted to attempt* to complete the course aside. The fact remains that David Castera - to my knowlege - has always acted with two prime considerations in mind ; those being 1). the riders/competitors saftey 2.) the sporting integrity of the rally.

    But as far as questioning Castera's merit as far as determining what should or should not be included in a Dakar route - as far as a moto competitor is concerned - is a bit ill-informed. With multiple years as a factory team moto competitor and various Dakar and other major FIM rally podiums to his credit, I would say DC is more than qualified for the job.

    * The ASO/Castera copped a fair bit of flack for not "allowing" a number of competitors to continue passed the "CP3" on SS3 into the area where "canyongate" occurred. The reasons given by the organisation being that "saftey" (no helicopter/sweep/recovery coverage at night AND below freezing conditions) were entirely valid. What would the public reaction be had a dozen riders perished after being premitted to continue at a point in time where it was obvious they would end up in the darkness, on a stage that is treacherous enough in daylight?

    It seem the defence cited by a number of those who were denied the chance to complete the route was based on the good old DAKAR motto of "by any means possible" - where once upon a time (in africa) the rule of thumb - for those who were behind the eight ball and completed stages in the dark - that as long as you made the DSS (start control) of the following day's stage ("by any means possible") within one hour of the scheduled start for the first competitor - you were permitted to continue.

    Dakar folklore is full of examples where "late runners" have come in from the desert after battling the element all night, only to have to refuel, stuff a dry croissant with rasberry jam and orange juice down their necks... and continue on the next leg.

    While this "folklore" worked (to an extent) on the far more "linear" style dakar of nth Africa... in principle it does not translate so well onto the "special stage" type format of Sth America.

    Those riders who were either forced or obliged by the orga to "abandon" the SS3 canongate stage were required to ride (around) the mountain range that the Special Stage crossed over... the lateness and distance involved meant that many were not able to make the bivouac/SS4 start till after all competitors departed. This in turn meant that they should "transport" on to the SS4 Bivouac.

    The problem (from the sporting aspect) created that in this instance should a rider who had not completed SS3 and subsequently "bypassed" SS4 completely, be allowed to re-start on day 5. unfortunately the rules in dakar do not provide for such a thing (missed/incompleted stage) and under the circumstance it was also unfortunate that some compromise/penalty be agreed to for those that were caught in this situation, be allowed to continue.

    I can understand completely the frustration and dissappointment for those who invested so much time, money and effort - who still on Day 5 were capable/prepared to continue, but were not permitted to do so.

    That being said - it is not the first time this has occured. in the past large portions of the competitor field were DNF'd having not completed the course (sandstorms)...

    Once on another occassion back in the early 90's there were only TWO finishers (autos) on a stage in the Sahara (JP Fontennay and Bruno Saby in the factory Mitsu's). The field was hit by an immense sandstorm, and the orga abandonned the stage at a CP/refuel - issuing instructions for an alternate route to the bivouac. Problem being that the lead group of Auto's had already passed that point. Most got bogged and or turned around back to the CP/refuel (including the factory Citröens)... but the two Mitsu's manage to forge on an complete the entire course... the only two.

    Despite a protest and much debate, the two "finishers" were deemed not to have completed the course... merely they had subjected themselves to several hours of toture for nothing. Citröen went on to win, but Mitsubishi were morally - the only ones that completed the rally.

    it's a funny ol game this Dakar puzzle. :wink:
  5. Balkan Boy

    Balkan Boy Long timer

    Joined:
    May 28, 2008
    Oddometer:
    4,315
    Location:
    Balkan
    I agree that David Castera is probably the most qualified to scout and determine these routes, but it's a bit odd that (judging by that photo from Riaan) that they've put in such a Erzberg-sadistic section in.
    They have 10-15 days to increase the difficulty, why throw it all in a few kilometers?
    With hindsight, this decision (or mistake?) caused most of the drama, controversy, logistics shuffling and major attrition this year.

    One more thing that I've been wondering for years is do they ever use motorcycles while scouting? We always see them in those Toyotas, but how do they mark some peculiarities that are unique to moto road book? Especially this year with only moto stages.
  6. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente f5ree sub-zero agent

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2005
    Oddometer:
    46,860
    Location:
    "Swednavia" - f5ederation of Scandwegia
    I recall that there was something written in past, that DC has had access to a moto while scouting. One would assume this was the case this year.

    Your comment about the "erzberg" nature of this section is interesting/valid one. As you say, in the "total" distance of the rally - these few kilometers are inconsequential... except for the fact that they were so technical, that they had (for several competitors) a critical hand in the outcome.

    But cannot the same be said for (for example) a deep river crossing - like we have seen on several events in past? I mean, for sure riding through 700mm deep + water corssing has little (in principle) to do with a desert rally, on bikes designed for anything but deep water. But invariably we see Dakar riders who - having spent all day at full noise, chasing WP's across the desert landscape, who dive in - show inadequate caution - and spend an hour or so de-watering their bikes. You could argue that this has no place in a desert rally (or a mud slide, or a snow storm)... but maybe it is a part of the "Dakar" (anything can happen) mystique?

    No matter how fast a rider, their result is only as good as their biggest misstake... Damage control/downtime reduction and keeping the on course delays to a minimum, played a big part in this years rally... both moto and auto.

    Is this how it should continue... or should it become a series of sprint SS, where "the fastest" is the only consideration?
  7. Carlos M

    Carlos M www.motoxplorers.com

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2002
    Oddometer:
    4,768
    Location:
    Portugal, Europe
    :nod One of the "Recon" episodes of two or three years ago shows Castera with a WR scouting a piece of track that would be motorcycle specific. Can't recall if they carried it in the Toyotas.
  8. schattat

    schattat Long timer

    Joined:
    May 18, 2008
    Oddometer:
    1,544
    Location:
    Germany
    Yep, you're right! Standard WR450F with an Acerbis 25L tank bolted on the front. They hauled it in a big truck, not in the Hilux's...
  9. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente f5ree sub-zero agent

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2005
    Oddometer:
    46,860
    Location:
    "Swednavia" - f5ederation of Scandwegia
    If anyone has ever ridden a WR450F at anytime, anywhere in the desert, anywhere on the face of the globe in the last eight years... Schattat tony knows about it, can tell you what type of fuel tank it had, who manufactured the nav tower and what compass heading they were on at the time... :rofl

    Hi Tony! :wave
  10. Myway

    Myway Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2007
    Oddometer:
    9,451
    Location:
    Knobby country
    2011

    David Castera, directeur sportif du Dakar teste le parcours des motos.

    [​IMG]

    link
  11. Bluebull2007

    Bluebull2007 Adventurer

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2008
    Oddometer:
    5,878
    Location:
    Honduras
    DC has the best job in the world. No doubt about it.


    Troy: That was a good post. :thumb

    Taking the orga's POV, I agree 100% with the decision to have a cutoff for people going up to 4,300m on a ridge in the late afternoon. 2-3pm would have been the cutoff for sure and for good reason. We found it never really helped because for whatever reason half the front runners ended up down the wrong canyon and the other half apparently were directed down it. I still have my doubts about that story. My gut feel is that people just got lost.

    CHAVO: If you're still reading this can you remember seeing an official at the top of the mountain in Stage 3? If you can can you remember if he was near the point where you went back down that two track on the other side? Also we know it was a clear day when Barrea was video'd, but was it still clear when you got to the top or cloudy? :ear

    Weather can change quickly and that may have had an impact.
  12. chavo_dakar_bolivia

    chavo_dakar_bolivia Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2011
    Oddometer:
    139
    Location:
    Bolivia
    I didnt see any officials at that mountain or near it when I went by. The "canyongate" was probably 3-5 kms from that climb where it was easy to make a nav mistake and go down the mountain on the wrong side. I did a few circles at the top searching for the correct way but always was careful not to go down on anything that seemed hard to return again...
    There were spectactors though, on enduro bikes and 2 trucks at the top, one with oxygen that I enjoyed for a few minutes!
    The weather was ok, no fog or low clouds, we had good visibility.
    My fellow countrymen Walter Nosiglia on the quads told me that he was redirected by officials before the gnarly climb, and did not go up on it. They were turning them back and around some place, obviously missing wps.
  13. Bluebull2007

    Bluebull2007 Adventurer

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2008
    Oddometer:
    5,878
    Location:
    Honduras
    Thanks for the reply Chavo! :thumb Very interesting indeed!

    Very interesting to hear about Walllllllltter Nosiiiiiiiiigliaaaaaaaaaa :D :1drink

    He must have gone up that hill in the end as well otherwise he would not have made it to be bivouac no?

    Un abraso
    Neil
  14. wrk2surf

    wrk2surf on the gas or brakes

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Oddometer:
    10,325
    Location:
    THE exact center of California/Bass lake/Yosemite
    a great guy I met during the rally during the Dakar was Clayton Jacobson.. he was one of the guys "excluded" Here is his take on that climb and the ASO's choices on his Facebook page

    [​IMG]



    Hi All,

    Sorry for the delay in information, I have been choking on my result and not wanting to relive it.

    so here it is My Dakar Day 3 - Short and Bitter,

    So this years race has been brutal, my race came to an end on Day 3, not from crashing, exhaustion or mechanical problems but I was a victim of the organisers desire to make the toughest race in the world, the toughest race in the world.

    Day 3 started fine, although as soon as the course opened up from the tight technical canyons we started in I came across broken bikes and riders.

    At the fuel stop the photographer said he had picked up 4 riders with broken bones in the helicopter.

    I seemed to have found a rhythm that worked and was navigating well and picking up some places without pushing (pushing is bad, you will crash).

    Around 60kms from the end of the stage we started to climb in the mountains 2000m up to 4000m. On one of the climbs I got caught half way up when blocked by another rider and realised i had a major free flowing fuel leak. I did not want the bike to catch on fire so i kept it upright on the climb while the fuel drained away.

    10mins later I ran out of fuel, I asked rider after rider if i could have some fuel and no one would spare any as the stage still had 60kms to go. Eventually an italian rider gave me a litre to continue up to CP2. I had wasted about 90mins trying to get fuel ( this is what put me in a bad position and late for the CP).

    On getting to the bottom of a very technical and difficult climb at CP2 around 4000m, the organisation had placed their vehicle across the track and said the stage is closed as there is to many injured and missing riders , we are to wait here for news from race control.

    There we broken bikes and people all about the place.

    I called race control on my iritrack twice to confirm what was happening and they said it was with the jury, and we are to stay put.

    Some riders turned back but 7 of us who were ready to go waited, we were held there until we were losing the light, the organisation said we must decend as the temperature will drop quickly.

    We were constantly asking about our race position and what this delay means for our start the next day, we were told by race control arrangements were being made for a delayed start for us.

    we were given the option to sleep in the mountains or ride to San juan bivouac for further instructions which we elected to do only to be told we must not ride the mountains at night as it is too dangerous. These instruction were given to us from the head of the race David Casters.

    We froze at 2700m with only our plastic foil blanket and CP banners for warmth.

    In the morning before dawn we were not allowed to leave as riders were still missing in the area and we could not leave until they were found.

    Eventually we were able to leave and ride to San Jaun bivouac and then told to go the next bivouac 550kms away.

    There we pleaded our case to the head of motorcycles who said it would go to the jury as we had missed the stage.

    We were informed we had been excluded from the race 1 hr later.

    We then took our protest to the race control who understood there had been a mistake but could do nothing about it.

    We then took our protest to the head of the Dakar David Caster who agreed he had made a mistake but because they had lost control of the security of the race we would not be allowed to start the next day.

    this argument went on for 3hrs.

    the final word was "it is not possible" for us to start the next day.

    they agreed we had followed the rules from the organisation exactly as required and that he had held us and made us miss the start and that was a mistake.

    Still the verdict stood.

    the 7 of us were excluded from Dakar 2014.
  15. too old

    too old Keen supporter Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Oddometer:
    6,426
    Location:
    Sandy waste
    Sam never mentioned anyone giving directions either, his road book was out of sync, as was he after just about pushing the bike up that last section..

    Disorientated he then made the "fatal" error of following (his Brit mate Grabbo :lol3) - he realised something wasn't right after about 50 metres, but couldn't get back as it was too steep.

    There were a few of them, Grabbo, Speedy and Faria amongst them.

    They aided Ruben when he had his issues and after pushing, dropping bikes off rock edges and risking serious falls, they managed to get out after about 2 hours! :thumb
  16. doyle

    doyle RallyRaidReview-ing

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2004
    Oddometer:
    25,262
    Location:
    Off Piste
    I heard a few accounts very similar to Clayton's so at this point, I accept that story as pretty much the facts of what happened. The frustration level must have been through the roof.
  17. Myway

    Myway Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2007
    Oddometer:
    9,451
    Location:
    Knobby country
    We must have a left over roadbook to clear this.
  18. ROKIT_71

    ROKIT_71 Gone Orange

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2011
    Oddometer:
    228
    Location:
    Melbourne
    This is a message I received from a mate after the race who was there also and had problems.

    His outcome is really bad as you will read!

    My engine broke down on 4.000 meter at 14.00. I had the 54th position!! The oil come out everywhere. At 19.00 I was very happy I had the possibility to buy a engine of an slovianian participator which broke his wrist. Then I get stopt at 20.30 by the organization to change the engine. I need to come down with them because the race was neutralized ! Than the next day they took us out of the race. I was very disappointed! The organization left my bike for 4 days on the mountain. Now it is stolen and not insured! I'am really Fed up with ASO!
  19. rmhrc628

    rmhrc628 Long timer

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2006
    Oddometer:
    3,076
    Location:
    Melbourne

    Is this pal ullevaters? (Sorry:))
  20. ROKIT_71

    ROKIT_71 Gone Orange

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2011
    Oddometer:
    228
    Location:
    Melbourne

    No not Pal.

    I won't mention this guys name just in case he'd rather not want me too.