copy that. i run 14/48 for d/s and 14/50 for more technical stuff. with 14/48 70-75 "feels" good for all day. your gearing would work good for higher speeds for sure. i think it'd still have to be a pretty wide 5 speed though, or just a really tall OD 5th
Bend to the Bay area is a pretty good ride for an XCW-and an XCW would be my weapon of choice in SF traffic! The KTM "W's" are a pretty good reference point as they have fairly wide boxes - either 3.01 or 3.18:1. If the CCM had a 3.5:1 box, was running at 80 mph on the slab at the same rpm as your XCW, in the technical parts it would be as if it was geared aprox 11-16% lower if I'm doing my math right. Definately helpful - though I'm not sure it would be enough.
He of course wants a bike that can jump, ride technical stuff and climb stairs in 3rd world countries as well. I know you are being fecicious Eakins... and of course if you read his ride reports (and others) its obvious why he and many want a bike that can do all these things.
I'm sure it fun playing with all these numbers, and I applaud Colebatch for suggesting that you contact CCM with your gearing requests (rather than just going round and round on here)... But I fear the bottom line is that CCM are buying these [old] G450X engines in from Kymco, and they will get what they are given, initially at least. We can all speculate how this bike is going to perform on and off road, but until Minkyhead (and anyone else who has actually ordered one) gets one, and actually rides it, it is all theory? Don't forget that the BMW/Speedbrain G450 bikes performed perfectly well* in the Dakar, which to be honest is a pretty good test of the sort of conditions a lightweight 'Adventure' bike is going to need to perform in - 8000+kms in two weeks, long road liaisons, altitude, heat, cold, desert, mountains, mud etc etc etc. If you are also planning to tackle really serious single-track terrain, then a fully faired/large tank adventure/rallye style bike is probably not going to be ideal anyway? - Personally I'd stick to an Enduro with a larger gas tank and call it good... Jx *I say perfectly well, I still have concerns about the crank-mounted clutch, but that is another tangent...
Well I wonder if Kymco just have them sitting around in stock and are giving them away for next to nothing, or if Kymco are building them up for CCM. If the latter, then the question is how much does it cost to rejig the gearbox. Probably one day of a Taiwanese engineers time to recalc the ratios, plug the numbers into the AutoCad machine and reprogram the machine tools, which at that level I assume would be all plugged straight into the AutoCAD anyway. The cost of manufacture will be the same. - same amount of steel, same amount of machine tool time, same amount of heat treatment time / energy, same amount of assembly time. The cost is of getting a design engineer to rework the matching sets of cogs. They have a 6 speed box for the Husky, so dont have to rework selectors, or widths or anything. They have all the original drawings and measurements so nothing needs to be remeasured to make sure it fits. Biggest problem in developing aftermarket solutions is measuring up the original in 3D so you can redraw the original on a computer, before modifying it. Kymco already have all the original drawings and measurements on their CAD system. They save 80-90% of the time and effort vs an aftermarket solution.
I think you need to ride one of these kymco 450 bikes and see what the sweet spot "all day" cruise rpm is for you. Its going to fall between 4000-6000 rpm but will be different for each person. Pick a speed you would like on the tarmac and gear the sprockets to that RPM and road speed. If its then geared too tall for rock gardens, get an auto clutch for it. If there are no auto clutches offered it might be easier to get Rekluse to develop one than getting Kymco to modify things. Not sure if auto clutch is possible on this weird motor, though..... I had an xc500 husky bike. it was just designed for open desert type terrain and did fine in the mountains
I just sent an email I Austin Clews who is the CEO/head of CCM's email. I just let him know who I am and how much I would like a really wide gear spread and to please bring the bike to America. I urge anyone else who thinks the same to do this as well before the bike design is set in stone. Luke
But it won't then do single track. You guys are drunk on Dakar RACE BIKES! They run high rpm, high speed, period. Then that night, they are maintained by professional mechanics, to race again the next day. These are NOT Adv bikes - with respect to maintenance or gearing.
I will respectfully disagree with your post. Firstly, there is a lot more than just high RPM and high speed in Dakar. Secondly, only the top bikes get worked on every night by trained mechanics, most might get an oil and filter change. And NO decent ADV type bike will do single track very well. And lastly, Rallye bikes can and do make great ADV type bikes according to most guys that I have talked to that have them. The whole idea behind the CCM is to have a Dakar type bike, a 650 class engine makes a hell of a lot more sense to me if you were to use it as a long distance dirt tourer, but 450 will probably sell well because of the recent Dakar rule changes. A 450 might be able to be made lighter than a 650, but once you load it up with gear and fuel the weights are much close (% wise), and I would rather have the more relaxed bigger bike just chugging along, than have a 450 screaming.
All good points - if you really want to ride from one extreme to the other on the same machine, then there is always going to be a degree of compromise - fortunately most of the time people ride somewhere around the middle, and put up with the compromises as required - what those compromises are depends on what bike you choose, and where your priorities lie? This thread is rapidly turning into yet another 'mythical perfect bike' thread, rather than discussing the positives of this CCM, everyone is focusing on the negatives? Perhaps we should direct Haraise and Bill here? - this sounds like just the sort of bike they are after... (sorry) Jx ps. I'm not sure that the Factory Dakar bikes that are geared for over 100mph (160kmh) have a particularly low first gear, as their riders don't really need it... the rest of the Dakar field these days tends to top out around 145km to retain a reasonable low set of gears from the MX/Enduro derived engines (that also don't have the outright bhp of the Factory KTM 450s) - it's kind of a moot point anyway as mousses start to melt at anything over 130kmh for a prolonged period of time...
I think you underestimate rally bikes. Heres Marc Coma's 450 rally being backflipped http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUivvXJVOVg
Great clip! However, the bike doesn't then go on and do 100mph - it is very likely the gearing was changed for that particular trick... I think that is Gryphon's point - you can have either end of the extreme, but not both at the same time? Jx
It always seems to go that way. I said I would prefer a 650 class thumper, but I'm not trying to say I think the CCM should be a 650cc class. I see it as a good thing that they are going the 450 route because while there are quite a few 250 or 600+ class bikes that fit the bill quite nicely, there is a big hole in that section of the market for bikes that are/can be made into good ADV bikes. Just clearing it up so it doesn't sound like I'm one of those people who instantly think a bike is a waste of time because it doesn't meet my needs.
JMo, you are right. One way or another, a light agile adventure bike is a long overdue addition to an adventure bike market oversaturated with a dozen or so varieties of the 250 kg "gravel goldwings".
I like the bike. It would be very nice to see a lighter weight ADV bike, long over due. Enough 'gravel goldwings'! Maybe its more of a regional bike than a long distance machine, but thats okay. I don't see a smallish company having a whole lot of money for re-tools or R & D. Big R & D breaks small companies. This bike looks to be VERY small production. I don't think CCM can produce large numbers, what like 1000 or 2500 or 10,000 units??? Those are still small numbers worldwide. Maybe 50 or 100. Nice fitment and parts will raise the cost to the consumer. I don't see anyhow, anyway how this bike could come in under Ten grand in the US. It just doesn't happen unless its a DR or XRL (low spec bikes). And even coming to the US? Lets see... Slim & None. Sherco or Scorpa or Ossa comes to mind. Better have the cash up front and sitting on the importer/distributors desk. PARTS??? Hmmm... I love the bike. Lets see 6 gears. Get past epa and dot LOL. I could afford to own one, but by the time I would hear about their arrival it would be too late. Interestingly, Rally Raid does get involved with projects that DO happen! Did I say I like the bike?
This bike looks to be VERY small production. I don't think CCM can produce large numbers, what like 1000 or 2500 or 10,000 units??? Those are still small numbers worldwide. i wouldnt be expecting them to produce much more than 20 bikes per month on the initial run .. i guess that could change.with demand ... but as said this bike isnt going to run into the 1000s anytime soon ....im not sure thats their intention anyway ...just my guess of course it is a smaller market for sure but that could fit perfectly for a smaller firm ...which seems exactly where thay are trying to sit 2 or three hundred bikes a year are not going to stirr up the big guys interest too much ..thta may work to ccms advantage in the longer term
Actually CCM is interested in this thread and this thread is about showing there are people who realize the difficulty involved in changing the gearbox BUT a company doing just that would make the difference they needed to jump on it. It's not a mythical, impossible concept to produce a lightweight adventure bike with wide transmission; it's extremely practical and doable, and based on this thread, CCM may actually put the effort in to do just that! A single owner could get the gears down by himself though he might have to pay 10 grand+. 20 guys could go in together and probably get new gear sets for 1,500 a piece. OR CCM could have Kymco make them like this from the factory... as they already have the CAD drawings as Walter pointed out and there numbers would be much higher than 20, it might only end up costing a couple hundred extra per bike. And while Kymco was doing it, they could tune engine to run more optimally with the wide box. Over and over again I meet guys with DR400's, XR650R's, KTM690's who either: 1.) Wish they had a wider box 2.) Have gotten used to swapping sprockets all the time 3.) Just don't enertain the idea of either the lower or higher speed of riding as it's too much of a pain. Wouldn't it rock if a bike other than the 250cc category came like that?