Hi John, I'm trained as an engineer and in the early days wrote a lot of assembly language code for control systems. Thanks for the detail but could you explain the whole algorithm? I'd like to take your data, convert the whole table to a degrees-advance table and then plot it in comparison to my measurements. Also, have you found the Dwell table? My GS-911 reports Spark Advance and Dwell. RB
The software have a function to calculate spark advance but for else ecu, not for monotronic. I try to get it another time, because need many mathematical calculations to found values.
Thanks for the displays they're interesting and different than the 1150RT as you can see in the graphs. It looks to me though like your load axis is mis-labeled. What you've labeled 13 is high load and what you've labeled 100 is actually low load. So if you left the table alone but inverted the labeling on the load axis it would look pretty good. In other words I believe your top row of data is high load and the bottom row is low load. Rpm looks correct. Here is the general shape of these (generic data below): In general: Low MAP (low engine load) = more spark advance High MAP (high engine load) = less spark advance Low RPM = less spark advance High RPM = more spark advance The spark advance table is a 12 by 12 matrix (144 values) based on engine RPM and MAP sensor values. A further table of 10 values is used to make adjustments for engine coolant temperature. Example Spark Advance Table [ign_table(rpm,kpa)] 130kPa 0.0 2.0 6.0 10.0 14.0 18.0 22.0 26.0 30.0 31.0 32.0 32.0 120 0.0 3.0 7.0 11.0 15.0 19.0 23.0 27.0 31.0 32.0 33.0 33.0 110 0.0 4.0 8.0 12.0 16.0 20.0 24.0 28.0 32.0 33.0 34.0 34.0 100 0.0 6.0 10.0 14.0 18.0 22.0 26.0 30.0 36.0 36.0 36.0 36.0 90 0.0 8.0 11.0 15.0 19.0 23.0 30.0 33.0 35.0 36.0 36.0 36.0 80 2.0 8.0 12.0 16.0 20.0 24.0 30.0 34.0 35.0 36.0 36.0 36.0 70 4.0 8.0 12.0 16.0 20.0 24.0 30.0 34.0 35.0 36.0 36.0 36.0 60 6.0 10.0 14.0 18.0 22.0 26.0 31.0 34.0 35.0 36.0 36.0 36.0 50 8.0 12.0 16.0 20.0 24.0 28.0 32.0 35.0 36.0 36.0 36.0 36.0 40 8.0 14.0 18.0 22.0 26.0 30.0 34.0 36.0 38.0 38.0 39.0 40.0 30 8.0 16.0 19.0 23.0 27.0 31.0 34.0 37.0 39.0 40.0 41.0 42.0 20 8.0 16.0 20.0 24.0 28.0 32.0 34.0 38.0 41.0 44.0 46.0 46.0 ........500 750 1000 1500 2000 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 RPM
Hi John, Your spark table only makes sense if you relable the axis. It is upside down otherwise. As I mentioned two posts back, low throttle angle (which is high manifold vacuum) has higher advance than high throttle angle (which is low vacuum). Once you make that change, the data looks close to most spark advance tables and matches the measurements I've made. The corrected table is below and assumes that the numbers are correct, just in the wrong order. Perhaps inside the Motronic the axis is pressure, not throttle angle. That would explain your software's misinterpretation of it. I hope this helps you with your work. RB
Yes perhaps it as an error. Mauby the number are negative value on table. I remap all ecu by experience, not by real dergrees. When i remap the ecu then i mesure the fuell ratio by a wideband, by a exhaust's themperature and by a knock sensor. When the fuell ratio on wideband shows 14,7:1 at iddle, 14,2-13,8 between 1.200-5.200 rpn and 13,8-12,5 until 7.500, and the engine has no knocking by a 95 octane gas, then it is all rigths. fuell economy by power !!
Thank makes sense. Thank you for putting the time and effort in to make this table readable by the rest of us. It is appreciated. RB
Roger, have you verified your HES plate under the pulley? the chart appears as if max advance is 43-44 degrees, and it seems to go there at throttle application under 20% this would be in line with my knocking/pinging issues with low octane fuel , and warm weather. I retarded my HES plate ( static timing) as far as it would go, just curious where your plate lies with the data you collected?
Hey MFF, Good question. The answer is I have never checked my static timing. I guess that I should. All I can tell you is I make a lot of test rides and often drop my head to the tank to listen for knocking. Only once have I heard anything and that was when I programmed a large lambda shift, didn't allow time for adaptation, and put the motor under a high load. That was about 8 months ago, one time. My plots are the data stream coming from my Motronic via the GS-911. So those are the Motronic calculated numbers, with the Motronic ASSUMING that I have my static timing set right. I'll try and measure that sometime soon. After John did some work to turn the Binary into degrees (nice work John) and I realized his left-side axis was upside down, there is a pretty tight correlation with my Motronic data. RB
If you get pinging/knocking, you'll know! The one time I got it after having to fill up with regular, I was shocked by how loud it was. :eek1 I am used to hearing it in cars but with the exposed cylinders on the BMW, it comes through clear as day even at 50mph with earplugs on. I DO NOT want to hear that again!
Canoe, I hear ya on that "you'll know" comment; but in reading a multitude of posts where "ping" was discussed, I'm not so sure it is all that obvious that most riders know much about ping. No matter what you do to the map, AF or ignition, you can still have detonation (ping). I've had my '11 1200GS for right on a year. I run mid-grade 89 ron/mon divided by two because that's what my owners manual says to use. I don't recall a single case of ping. I'm just getting to the point I can feel what gear I'm in in slow turns, but do occasionally get into a lugging situation, a situation I hate and one where detonation usually occurs. Where I'm heading with all of this is the way you operate the throttle, the gear that you are in AND staying away from cheap ass low octane have IMO way more to do with ping than maps.
I believe your 1200 has a knock sensor, so if you do get pinging, the ECU will immediately pull timing. That won't help with lugging but at least the problem isn't compounded. Most modern cars have knock sensors, so hearing pinging is getting more and more rare. In my turbo- and blower- equipped cars, pinging is VERY BAD. I once read that one ping under boost can destroy the apex seals in a Mazda RX-7 turbo. A friend of mine swears that his '08 1200 will lose power after one tank of regular and it won't come back unless he resets the ECU, which suggests that the 1200 ECU immediately writes spark retard to the tables. He is a pretty knowledgeable guy (aka OCD Engineer, like me), so I have to believe him. It's ironic (and not in a Alanis Morrisette way) - he has a knock sensor, yet he is way more militant about Octane levels than I am because I just have to take it easy for one tank, he has to reset the ECU! However, I agree with your comments, generally. When I got the pings on my bike, I just ran it at higher RPM in a lower gear until I used up that tank of gas. It only happened when I rolled on the throttle in 6th at low rpm to pass someone. I do have a bad habit of wacking open the throttle at low revs because the PCIII allows me to do so with no lugging (or pinging).
I think it does have a knock sensor too, but am not sure. The lugging is an I/O problem, Ignorant / Operator. Still trying to train that dumb ass who sits in my saddle What my point is is that for some very smart people, it is part of the MC experience to get down into the minutia of tuning maps. Motorcycling is way more than putting in gas, hitting the starter and droning down the road. You can, though, compensate for a whole bunch of flaws by adapting your skills to the bike. For a lot of us real old geezers, we remember when that was almost the only option you had.
Pinging that you hear is certainly bad, but the pinging that you don't hear is equally bad. It's not uncommon for low level pinging to be happening and the operator doesn't hear it. That is the real advantage of a knock sensor.
I have 2012 GSA with 18000 and I get pinging when I work the throttle. Dealer predictably told me its normal and his bike does it too. But he has also said that with every problem I've had. I found that for some reason when I wear ear plugs the problem goes away
Core 10? I used to work in Chicago where a number of downtown buildings were faced in Core ten. The concrete at the base of these buildings also took on the same patina as the building itself.
Roger, Mr. C, et al, Quick update here, the AFR meter I had ordered turns out to be the wrong one for my model PCIII, and the right one is NLA. So I have shut down experimentation on the GSA, spending the waning hours of this riding season tuning the PCIII on my FJR1300 (now improved with loud pipes, I feel so much safer). Roger if you could maybe make a recommendation? And that would be what is the base configuration of the LC1 or other Innoavative products needed for basic data acq capabilities? It turns out the general state of knowledge of PCIII FJR ECU interaction is as pitiful as the GS, even more so, and some actual data would be good. On those models you disconnect the O2 sensor completely so that plug is just sitting there waiting for a wideband... Thanks to everyone involved for a great discussion. AJ
AJ, Since I've got the GS-911 for the R1150, it pairs fairly well the the LC-1. The GS-911 can log data points for everything the Motronic tracks, about 14 items including RPM, TPS, Spark, Injection and all the sensors. Then I use the LC-1 to log realtime O2 data. I don't know what I'd do if I didn't have the GS-911. The LC-1 comes with a Bosch LSU 4.2 O2 sensor, Wideband Controller, AFR Gauge, serial cable (need to buy serial to USB cable), calibration switch and LED status lamp. All you really need is a cable to connect to your ECU O2 input if you want Closed Loop and some very basic junction box to terminate and wire the cables together (there's a thread called Wideband O2 Installation Overview). It also comes with AFR logging software. So basically you buy the LC-1 and a $5 plastic junction box and apart from the wiring job, that is everything.
I have the same LC-1 and was wondering if the datalogger is worth the extra $$. I might be better off just buying a GS911. Sent from my Droid Tablet using Tapatalk
