Countersteering confusion : (

Yes it could be correct, but I believe the right term is the wheel is outtracking, this has nothing to do with countersteering so please do not confuse the two.

The same way that a car's "counter steering" (as in drifting, for example) or a throttle steer for a motorcycle, where the front wheel(s) is(are) pointed outward to the curve, should not be called counter steering? Is it because the concept is too complicated and once you got it you don't want to lose it? Or is it because counter steer is a trademark for motorcycles and other two-wheel vehicles when referring to initiate a lean (turn)?

The front wheel(s) is not pointed outward to the curve!!!! Its still following the exact line of travel!!! The frame itself is whats pointing toward the outside of the curve and rotates around the steering stem in this case.

The only possible way for the front tire to not be following the line of travel is if it were sliding or off the ground.

Camber thrust does have an effect on how far the handlebars are actually turned to make a given corner. However, its not a significant effect compared to the front wheel's direction deciding the radius of the turn. You could have a motorcycle with razor blades for tires (so no camber thrust what so ever) and it would corner just fine if not better than a rounded motorcycle tire. I'm pretty sure I remember reading something from a Moto GP mechanic about having razor sharp tires would be optimum for cornering. Of course they could never make a rubber tire handle that sort of load on a razor sharp point.

Well words can have multiple meanings. So if you want to call two separate and disconnected concepts countersteering and confuse everyone you speak to, be my guest.

Pro tip: Don't stare at your front tire while you're riding.

Speaking of knife edge wheels, I feel the need to ride a razor scooter now. A few weeks ago I rode one for a little bit, and its bugging me. I don't remember consciously countersteering to initiate a turn. I was just trying not to run into a pebble.

"Drifting" or "Dirt Tracking" or rear wheel steering has nothing to do with what we are discussing.

In those cases above, you are turning into the skid to go around the corner or just keep control.

David

Hey! This thread is titled Countersteering confusion. Let those guys introduce all kinds of other crap please.

Otherwise we do need to conclude that the OP has received clarification 7 times over in this thread. That's no fun.

Here's how I teach new (and not so new) riders of my riding group the basic real world application of counter steering.
Most of them know about the Theory of counter steering, but not the real world application of it

I'll take them to a moderately twisty road that doesn't have much traffic on it.

I'll instruct them that we will be cruising at a steady 45 mph (except where there is a 30 mph zone in a built up area) I then instruct them once we get up to speed and in the proper gear, to remove their left hand from the bar and hold it out to their side. They will control the bike with their right hand using throttle and front brake application, along with rear brake .... if needed.
Most of them freak a bit at their first left hand corner/turn/twisty, but immediately get the understanding of counter steering, once through it!

Gotta love counter steering threads. They are up there, close to the motor oil and the ABS threads. Yes, I will add elements to the counter steering discussions, after all, we need to make sure we cover all the angles again and again and again. Talking about this, ABS threads have been losing ground lately. I guess more people are getting convinced of their utility (or are getting better insurance prices with ABS, or are plain out of options, all or almost all bikes come with ABS now). But who am I to start another ABS conversation.

:huh

Someone that clearly does not know what he is talking about?

The VAST majority of bikes are still NON-ABS. (as it should be)

My bike doesn't have ABS when parked. When in motion a goofy looking ABS computer is present with the attachment points being the seat, bars and foot pegs. It's a pretty slick system that looks and acts like a barely functional human being.

(This same computer also has counter steering algorithms programmed)

My '91 KLR and '89 Transalp came with factory installed manual ABS

I was 26 and had been riding on the street for 11 years when I took my first safety course so I could ride on the base as I was getting sick of parking outside the gate and walking in. I learned a lot, don't get me wrong, however they spent an inordinate amount of time with the counter steering thing.

I had never heard the term (this was in the 80's) and it seemed strange to me. Practiced a couple times and realized I was doing it the whole time, as a bike can't be steered over maybe 5 mph any other way.

My riding did not change with all this counter steering knowledge. Too much time thinking about it will just give you a headache. Want to remember something that will actually change your riding? Remember to look through the turn/curve and not right in front of the front wheel.

In an emergency, move the bike quickly. Countersteering will happen whether you think about it or not.

In a cycle magazine in the 70s, there is a photo of a bike making a full lean turn.

The caption

"Let me see, push right to go left Or is it push left to go left?"

Thinking about it in a turn is a bad idea.

David

I disagree. Thinking about it and practicing it is the best way to ensure success. Deliberately not thinking about it is silly.

If you can't negotiate a curve without thinking about how you are countersteering, you are screwed when there's no time to think...

I don't think he was saying you have to think about it during a curve. Only that it is silly to not try and understand what is going on and how it works.

Advice such as move the bike quickly is silly. Most of the time you don't approach the lean angle the bike is capable of. If you don't know to deliberately push the grip and instead just think to yourself "turn harder!!" you may run wide one day and it may have some terrible consequences. If you had taken the time to understand how it works, you might have a little poo stain when you are leaned over further than you are used to, but you're less likely to be in the trees.

There may be some folks that will lean the bike to its limits without having to consciously push the inside grip, but there's no one that knows to keep pushing the inside grip that will run wide before they lowside.

What?

read it again.