My 950 Refresh or Mission Creep...

The problem with a "top-half-only" solution to the air-box is the independent cable routing for each carb, and the geometry of the FRC bodies. The cables on the stock carbs (and it looks like also the stock FI throtle bodies), are bottom pull from a single pulley with a mechanical linkage joining the two carbs. The FCRs are two top-pull individually cabled carbs. The base plate on the CPR product will probably interfere with the carb-bodies and/or the cable hangerx. So even if it does clear, the cables will have to route *through* the foam element on top...Plus, the two FCR's don't sit parallel to each other like the stock carbs did, rather they are inclined on an angle, making a single flat base place unlikely to be able to sit flush on the two carb mouths.

This could definitely possible work if the clearance works with the extra heights.


It definitely all gets complicated pretty quick, which is why I wound up stuffing both my FCRs into the original airbox, then routed the cables through the front of the air-box with some grommets to seal it.

Here's what it looked like...






















That ALMOST worked. The foam element was a bitch to make with foam-glue, and didn't hold-up to washings very long with no-toil alcohol eating the glue. Finally, air-box top was too big once the foam was installed over it, so the effective area was reduced due to the foam touching the seat/frame etc.

BUT! this could work really well if the top "cage" was about 1/2 inch smaller all over, and if the foam element was properly manufactured. It gave a huge surface, and would also keep the linkages/cables/bodies nice and clean in the clean-air side of the air box.

Ultimately, I think two individual foam filters with some nice velocity stacks inside would do the trick real-nice. Especially if said velocity stack were mounted to a rubber elbow to allow the filters to be aimed forward and at an angle in the space under the glove box... I just did this to my wife's Ducati monster 696....Maybe she wouldn't notice the set-up missing for a few days? These K&Ns are easilly twice the size of the little one that came with the FCRs....

What radiator is that? Details, details!

(You can't just show up and post a picture like that without information man!) :eek1

I am so stoked!! I am a big time orange crush lurker. I read every post and write up of most everything that comes down the pipe in this forum. Right now I am so happy that Gregor is "on the path" to his goals with this bike.. Like many I can't wait to read the next edition. Then all of the amazing and bad ass leaders of this "orange crush disease" chiming in and supporting this blood letting journey that Gregor is on. Thank you, thank you to Flanny, Locul, Katoom 119, K2M, Mortimersickle, Pyndon and especially Sakurma!!! I have read almost everything from all of you which has led me to many,many, many hours in my own garage. Gregor, when this is all said and done I hope to all goodnes you produce 1 more rwhp then flanny, because then I get to watch Flannys next edition Have a great ride across the country.
Grinderman

The difference was tires, tps adjustment, and exhaust flanges?

(You can't just show up and post a picture like that without information man!) :eek1[/QUOTE]

I´m stoked. Big Flanny ASKED me question.

It´s a RC8(R) radiator, mounted to a none running RC8R, mounted to a LC8 frame.

Sorry for OT Sakurama. I enjoy your new momentum.

Flanny you were like three hours too late with that post. In my mind I was convinced those filters would work and then last night I get to the shop and see how the carbs tilted, the cables, everything and realize that, no, it's not going to work. So I spent the night installing my new "be-like-Flanny-tail-light" and realizing that the small LED blinkers I got need a new relay. It seems like 50% of the time those things work on the old relay but just blink too fast - this time they don't. Anyone found a simple LED flasher relay that works? It's a two wire one right? I only found one relay in the nose.

Anyway, I spoke to Chris about making a new bellmouth on the CNC and he said he could so it looks like that's the path to take. If we do get them made and they do work Chris would be willing to make more and sell them to anyone interested. Except Flanny.

Grinderman - welcome and thanks. It's nice to know that my relentless battle with Flanny is appreciated.

Keith - good point about the tires. I think I might just do a run where I unplug the TPS and see what happens so I can put a number to that.

Flanny - Mikael's build is epic and perhaps even more noble than mine since it involves more beer and less limits.

My goal right now is to sort all the little crap and get it running and ride it. I don't have a shop yet in Portland and my tools are here along with a dyno so there's no reason not to spend a bit more time trying to make this work.

Gregor

Well flanny, now we really notice the effects of spending too much time too far up north with to little interaction with civilazation (sp?)... :)

Michaels thread has been running during several years (he was stationed abround for a while) and every progress he makes brings the challenge even further for you.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=584482

Sorry couldn't resist....

Compared to all of you I'm just a humble dog poop you just stepped in.

Cheers,
Zappa

Fixed.

As much as I would like to be of the caliber to fit into that list, I am sorry to say I don't have the creds necessary to qualify.

So last night I sat down with Chris to discuss the bellmouth situation. Before he would let me discuss it he made me read an 8 page technical paper about the principles of bellmouth design. It was actually very interesting but it reminded me of my first girlfriend who made me read 50 pages of 6pt type about birth control before we could have sex...

I'll try to surmise the principle for anyone not familiar with the idea. Basically air doesn't like hard edges - or rather flow doesn't. The idea of a bellmouth is like the idea of a freeway merge, or the airport security line; trying to impart some organization and flow from a large area to a smaller one. As Chris put it, imagine a huge crowd trying to get into a stadium through a single door. If you put up lines you add some order to the process.

Here's a picture for you visual types:





Probably the most interesting thing about the design of a bellmouth is that of the various styles there's very little difference but that a parabolic curve is marginally better and a shorter one is better than a longer one but most importantly is that any bellmouth is far superior to no bellmouth. The FCR's come with no bellmouth. Go figure.

The other aspect of the design is that the length of the inlet tract is related to the size of the engine and also to the cam timing. We did some figuring based on what we know about the engine but one thing for sure is that the stock FCR's seem to be a big compromise with a far too short intake length. If anyone with a 990 R engine has the thing apart we'd like some measurements from the top of the bellmouth to the center of the inlet valve. It seems that calculating it should give around 10.5" but we'd like to match whatever KTM is using. Mikael? You got access?



One of the things about working with Chris is that I have to try to rein him in a little. He wanted to make an airbox which is always a better solution but as Flanny pointed out it's a big pain in the neck. If our idea is to make something that anyone else can put on their bike and see an improvement we need to keep it simple. It's not a race bike and we have to remember that any bellmouth is better than none.



The stock FCR has some things about it that Chris found disturbing like this inner ridge. The intake tract is supposed to be absolutely smooth and have no deviations in diameter unless it's a gentle taper to the valve. Again, Chris wanted to insert a tube into the carb and then epoxy this area to be smooth but I don't want to mess with it. Just something to note right now.



This is the stock Sudco bellmouth - they offer only two for their entire range of FCR carbs so it's quite apparent that they heard that any bellmouth is better than none and they knocked out two quick plastic ones and called it a day. It's far too short for the KTM according to our measurements.

So I ordered a 4" billet of 6061 aluminum last night and Chris will start machining it on Thursday. We're going to make four short bellmouths and then a few additional 1/2" plates to allow us to test for the length of the inlet. The bellmouth will be 4" in diameter picked because it seems to be about the right size to take a decent K&N filter and still fit in the bike. The bellmouth will feature a full round lip and the filter will actually clamp a full inch or more below the top of the bellmouth.

Since my engine and exhaust are out in left field I'll be sending a second set to Flanny to test as well. With luck these will work and we'll come up with a consistent length. While you could tweak a lot of variables to improve performance with the design the difference would be single digit percentages - imagine if the bellmouths gained say 5hp, well endless perfecting of the design would perhaps gain you 2-4%... of 5hp. Pointless. As a funny aside I asked Chris about the dimpling of the Wasp intakes and he thought that was a good idea if you wanted to play golf with your bellmouths. Ours will be smooth.

Anyway the goal is to find that 5hp back that the stupid pods rob and if we find more that would be great. An airbox would be better but only if it had bellmouths inside. They're key.

If they work Chris can make more and we can sell them to whomever wants them - if they don't we had a good time trying and learned something along the way.

Gregor

Chris again asked me about swapping the cams on the bike. I can't tell you how unappealing that idea is to me but if we get through a bunch of testing it might be something I end up doing. Yuck.

Gregor

I really enjoy this thread..and I don't even own a 950!

Apply the idea of 'air does not like hard edges' to the X you are using Gregor...

Someone else has also suggested that I blunt the leading edge of the back side of the X-pipe which is something I'm going to do. Make sense. I'm also going to replace that with two straight pipes just to see what a 2 into 2 does.

Gregor

Sakurama: "Mikael's build is epic and perhaps even more noble than mine since it involves more beer and less limits"
And No. Thank you but there is very good people involved in my project. You have actually inspired me to use some of my CU(civilian education points = i have almost earned 2 years of paid education with my Srg. salary) on welding and understanding electricals. Point is that you are making art with a detail that i can´t explain.

I can´t help with measuring because both LC8 are sold incl carbs.

mousitsas: "Apply the idea of 'air does not like hard edges' to the X you are using Gregor..."
But the original exhaust also have sharp 90 degrees corner. I´m thinking of the crossover. But again I do NOT know anything about exhaust.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinderman
... Then all of the amazing and bad ass leaders of this "orange crush disease" chiming in and supporting this blood letting journey that Gregor is on. Thank you, thank you to Flanny, Katoom 119, K2M, Mortimersickle, Pyndon and especially Sakurma!!!
...
Edit

The H crossover on the original exhaust only serves to exchange pressure conditions between the two pipes, not flow. Flow through the crossover is minimal. Also, the main pipe still maintains a direction. In Gregor's X there is no flow direction. Gas from the downpipe 'sees' 3 options to flow through. One of these options is straight ahead, but there is a total wall discontinuity.

Interesting reading on the Flowmaster website:

Full read here: http://www.flowmastermufflers.com/index.php?page=56

So since you've mastered the TIG welding, might be worth trying an H pipe, worse case welding back your X.

hehe. As much as i would like to be one of the guys with endless knowledge about 950s, i´m not. I stand corrected.

Sakurama do stuff and do it WILD

I went back and found the post I was referring to - and Im sorry to say its not that helpful.
The issue was with 990 ADV cams - but you've got a 990 SD/SDR motor if I remember correctly?

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=653042

Sorry to have sold you a red Nordic fish (red herring) :-/

...back in the saddle again....



S