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Old 08-17-2004, 03:20 PM   #1
Ian640 OP
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Question Third Oil Filter on an LC4

I believe the 660 rallye LC4s have 3 oil filters and considering fitting a third to my 640LC4-E. Anyone done this? Would appreciate comments on the following:

Possibility of increased engine longevity.
Possibility of increased intervals between oil changes.
Increased time to carry out an oil/filter change. Is additional bleeding etc. involved? Perhaps 660 rallye owners can shed some light on this.

Thanks in Advance.
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Old 08-17-2004, 03:37 PM   #2
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Looks like two in this drawing. The standard right side drop-in, and a E-Z access remote instead of the bottom of the downtube spin-on.
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Old 08-17-2004, 04:54 PM   #3
Ian640 OP
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What year is the diagram for?

I believe at least the 2000 and 2001 rally LC4s have 3 filters.

The pics here might help http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...&page=25&pp=15

Cheers.
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Old 08-17-2004, 05:09 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian640
What year is the diagram for?

Cheers.
Took it from KTMTalk. It's for the only year they list the 660 Rallye... '03.

I recall someone a few days ago, commenting on the "toilet paper" filter above the starter on a 90 something bike... now I know what they look like

Cheers back at'cha
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Old 08-17-2004, 06:21 PM   #5
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Man, I thought two fiilters was one too many, and you're looking for a way to add a third!

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Old 08-17-2004, 06:34 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by markjenn
Man, I thought two fiilters was one too many, and you're looking for a way to add a third!

- Mark
No kidding! I just change my oil more often than KTM recommends... and that's probably being obsessive
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Old 08-17-2004, 10:39 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creeper
I recall someone a few days ago, commenting on the "toilet paper" filter above the starter on a 90 something bike... now I know what they look like
yes, my '94 lc4 has the standard filter on the lower right side engine, and a toilet roll filter behind the engine above the gearbox. but it does not have the spin on at the bottom of the downtube.
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Old 08-18-2004, 04:35 AM   #8
Ian640 OP
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Yes, it'll mean additional time and cost for oil filter changes, but the more you do the quicker they get.

Here's the reasoning behind my original question:

1. I prefer to travel light, so I want to avoid carrying filters and oil. An option is to fit reusable filters. Any thoughts or experience of these?

2. It's difficult to buy fully synthetic oil in some parts of the world. For example, the last oil change I did away from home was in Niamey, Niger, where the best I could find was semi synthetic.

3. If at least some of the rally LC4s have a 3rd filter, then why?


Re: starter and cam/water drive issues.

What are these issues, as I had a water pump seal go once. Any mods or upgrades to prevent them?

Cheers.

Ian640 screwed with this post 08-18-2004 at 04:37 AM Reason: Minor adjustment
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Old 08-18-2004, 11:45 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian640
I believe the 660 rallye LC4s have 3 oil filters and considering fitting a third to my 640LC4-E. Anyone done this? Would appreciate comments on the following:

Possibility of increased engine longevity.
Possibility of increased intervals between oil changes.
Increased time to carry out an oil/filter change. Is additional bleeding etc. involved? Perhaps 660 rallye owners can shed some light on this.

Thanks in Advance.
Hi Ian,

You're right. The Rally's have three filters.
The two normal Lc4 Filters and the extra fine filter from the old SC models. Nicknamed Toiletroll because it looks like a roll of loopaper.
This is made to have more oil for better cooling.
You will still have to change it at least every 5000Km.
It will not change anything in the procedure or intervalls.
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Old 08-18-2004, 04:11 PM   #10
Ian640 OP
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Thanks for the replies all. At least it's stimulated some debate.

Re: Why is the third filter there? The mechanic who looks after my LC4 is also of the opinion that the third filter is there due to the day long racing conditions.

A shame it doesn't increase the service intervals. I stretched to 6000km in Africa without the motor failing, and that was using semi-synthetic oil.

Re: Reusable oil filter. Have a glance at the Scotts Performance website www.scottsperformance.com.

Re: Fitting an oil cooler. It's proportions can be judged by having a look at the front of a 2001 onwards 660 rally, but perhaps an owner can help out here with precise dimensions.

The problem would be where to locate it due to the different fairing on the 640 Adventure. I guess at least a low level front fender would be necessary.

Cheers.
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Old 08-19-2004, 02:01 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian640
Thanks for the replies all. At least it's stimulated some debate.

Re: Why is the third filter there? The mechanic who looks after my LC4 is also of the opinion that the third filter is there due to the day long racing conditions.

A shame it doesn't increase the service intervals. I stretched to 6000km in Africa without the motor failing, and that was using semi-synthetic oil.

Re: Reusable oil filter. Have a glance at the Scotts Performance website www.scottsperformance.com.

Re: Fitting an oil cooler. It's proportions can be judged by having a look at the front of a 2001 onwards 660 rally, but perhaps an owner can help out here with precise dimensions.

The problem would be where to locate it due to the different fairing on the 640 Adventure. I guess at least a low level front fender would be necessary.

Cheers.

Hi Ian,

we had this discussion "How to increase the Oil change intervals" the other day in a german forum.
The 5000Km intervals are a suggestion from KTM.
If you run your Lc4 in a competition you might change the oil long before 5000Km. In some situations it might be not possible to change it at 5000Km.
Than change ASAP. Even if this means 7000Km. This will only happen on a long journey. On this rides you are riding much more sensible than in a competition.
If you don't plan to compete in the Dakar or an other long distance Rally, you will not need a oil cooler or third filter.
Another point is, one of the two oil pumps in the rally bike is bigger than on the production Lc4 engine.
If you try to expand your lubrication system with a third filter and an oilcooler you will need this bigger pump too. The filter alone will work without changing the pump. Cooler not.
BTW. I have a spare fine filter laying around. Interested??
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Old 08-19-2004, 02:14 AM   #12
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" I stretched to 6000km in Africa without the motor failing,"


What do you expect? That it seizes up at 1 km over the interval? If the oil doesn't get to hot and the piston rings are oke (so the oil doesn't get polluted with fuel) then the oil in a 640 engine can probable do 30000 km/20000miles between changes. 5000 km is really ridiculous. In commercial engines (like big generators, crane engines, trucks, ..) oil intervals are much longer then in consumer vehicles. Why? Because in commercial engines the oil is lab tested, and the service intervals are determined by the lab results. We, as consumers, are scared into money making deals between vehicle manufacturers, their dealers and oil manufacturers.
Tiny service intervals are only beneficiary for the dealers, manufacturers and oil companys, not for you.
KTM gets money (or lower oil prices) from Motorex for kepping up with the tiny services intervals, dealers are glad to sell KTM's because a week later they can already rip you for a oil change.
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Old 08-19-2004, 02:34 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Converted Soul
" I stretched to 6000km in Africa without the motor failing,"


What do you expect? That it seizes up at 1 km over the interval? If the oil doesn't get to hot and the piston rings are oke (so the oil doesn't get polluted with fuel) then the oil in a 640 engine can probable do 30000 km/20000miles between changes. 5000 km is really ridiculous. In commercial engines (like big generators, crane engines, trucks, ..) oil intervals are much longer then in consumer vehicles. Why? Because in commercial engines the oil is lab tested, and the service intervals are determined by the lab results. We, as consumers, are scared into money making deals between vehicle manufacturers, their dealers and oil manufacturers.
Tiny service intervals are only beneficiary for the dealers, manufacturers and oil companys, not for you.
KTM gets money (or lower oil prices) from Motorex for kepping up with the tiny services intervals, dealers are glad to sell KTM's because a week later they can already rip you for a oil change.
Hi Soul,

That is simply not right.
That sounds like a big persecution complex.
Please go and get as many information as possible before posting such bullshit.
You can't compare a Motorcycle engine with a car engine.
In our engines the oil has to cope with the engine things and has to act as a gearbox oil.
The biggest problem for the oil are the shear forces in the gear box. (Shear forces is that right? If the teeth of two sprockets act like a pair of scissors)This will crash the molecules very fast. That means the viscosity of the oil decreases with light speed. That is also one reason why you shouldn't use oil with a very low viscosity index in the KTM engine or any engine with engine & gear box in one.
If you want to get more information go to the websites of the big oil companies or universities. Most of them have useful information for free.
If you can read german go to www.motorex.ch -> Tribologie
or http://www.schmierstoff-basics.de/fo...stoff_faq.html
or simply use Google
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Old 08-19-2004, 04:12 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Converted Soul
In commercial engines (like big generators, crane engines, trucks, ..) oil intervals are much longer then in consumer vehicles. Why?
The lab results may be the way to find out longer intervals. But longer intervals in machines like cranes, compressors and gensets would be due to constant speed/low rev and almost constant load on multicyl nicely balanced diesel engines with comparatively very low specific power. Establishing an analogy of that with a mono 640 running in an off-road motorcycle is just apples and oranges IMHO.

Anyway, a lot of those machines don't go over 500 hours intervals. And manufacturers of these kind of equipment really make an effort to extend said intervals as this sometimes a decisive selling argument.

The thing is that, unless you really can account for things like temps, engine speed and load during the oils usage (like cars and trucks are beggining to do with computerized engine management) there's no way to warrant oil will still be OK after the recommended interval. You are however free to use the manufacturers recommendation, to shorten it or to extend it, if you have the sense to judge what your usage has imposed. That's what most of us do after warranty periods.
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