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Old 10-14-2009, 11:43 AM   #1
toplessFC3Sman OP
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Project '73 CL350... fuel injection and electronic spark control?

Well, some friends and I picked up what the seller advertised as a '71 CL350, but after a bit of research appears to be a '73 (k5).

Anyhow, this is my first bike, and I'm working on getting back into good shape over the winter, which will involve the usual battery of de-rusting, painting, polishing, new rubber, cables and whatnot.

However, I'm very tired of dealing with the carbs over the past summer (as well as tank gunk), and the broken choke plate on the left cylinder. Instead of getting a new set of carbs and continue to mess with the adjustments... fuel injection may be an interesting project with potential gains in drivability, cold-start behavior and fuel economy... plus I don't think its been done before.

The plan is to go with a MegaSquirt open-source engine controller since not only are they cheap ($200!), but I've used them on project cars and through FSAE before, so i'm familiar with the hardware and software sides.

Then, i'd get some throttle bodies with injectors and fuel rails from a fuel injected bike (i'm thinking a CBR600 F4i since they come in banks of two, can be found very cheaply including injectors and everything), and have an integrated throttle position sensor. I'd need an in-line fuel pump, filter, and to add a return to the tank (probably just as a T in the tube that connects the two sides), but all of this is pretty minor.

On the signaling side, the contacts can be replaced with a toothed wheel and VR sensor or hall-effect sensor pretty easily to track engine position and speed (I have a spare sensor/wheel from my project car), and then use the megasquirt to control spark to the individual cylinders (it does have an odd-fire mode which should work)

The last hurdle would be tuning, but with a narrow-band O2 sensor and just tuning to stoich (or close anyway, to keep temps down), it shouldnt be hard, just a longer process since I dont really want to be riding with the laptop open on the gas tank... disaster much?

In addition, this would allow me to add a tach that actually seems to respond to the engine (the old one seems like its trying to move through peanutbutter...), as well as an idle valve, no need to ever re-jet, and if i wanted to go all-out, launch control, shift lights and some other neat little functions.

$200 for MS, $50 for throttle bodies/injectors etc, $70 for fuel pump, $30 for O2 sensor, $50 for misc. wiring supplies and electronics...tempting...

toplessFC3Sman screwed with this post 10-23-2009 at 08:25 AM
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Old 10-14-2009, 04:02 PM   #2
sjc56
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Great project. Keep us posted.
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Old 10-16-2009, 10:52 PM   #3
SimpleSimon
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Fantastic! Take a bunch of pics to share with the rest of us gearhead types.
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Old 10-18-2009, 12:08 PM   #4
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Well, just got a set of 4 throttle bodies, injectors, fuel rail, throttle position sensor and whatnot off of ebay from an '04 CBR600 F4i. The injectors should be fine size-wise, since the cyl size for the CBR is slightly smaller, but it rev's a bit higher.

One of the castings is a little bit broken, but overall they're in great shape, especially for $43 w/shipping.

Project's off to a start!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...SA:MOTORS:1123
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Old 10-18-2009, 04:44 PM   #5
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Great project, I'm all ears. I've got a CB360 I'd like to do the same with.
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:37 PM   #6
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Does anyone know of a way to increase alternator output on these old hondas? I imagine having to run the fuel pump and injectors (the MS itself is a fairly negligible draw) may begin to overwhelm the stock alternator, especially if the bike's lights are on.

I'd probably convert at least some of the lights to LEDs to save a little bit of power, and possibly hook up an HID projector from a wrecked car's headlight (they're pretty ubiquitous now, even in junkyards) for the headlight, giving not only a much better light pattern, but lower current draw and a new and interesting headlight form factor.
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Old 02-04-2012, 03:51 PM   #7
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Back from the dead, again. Its gotten cold enough to discourage me from doing too much to the car in what little free time I have. Since last post we've moved again, and now there really isn't space in the living room or elsewhere in the apartment for a motorcycle. Therefore, it's living down in the storage unit, surrounded by tools, boxes of parts, and other project-related stuff.


Anyhow, I've been making a bit of progress on the wiring, and tying up loose ends here & there. Basically just the power & ground need to be run for the fuel pump (since I'm still not sure where I'm going to put that), and then the air temperature, O2 sensor, and idle valve need to be wired up. Then, its wrapping the whole mess up in conduit & harness tape.


I'm planning on using one of the solenoid air valves from the emissions control on the project car as the idle valve for the bike, since its pretty small, electrically controlled, and is meant for a vacuum tube. That way, I can just plumb it to a vacuum port on each throttle body after the throttle. The fuel system is going to be primarily made from coated steel hard lines & compression fittings, since I can make those more compact than barbs & rubber hoses, plus they'll be less likely to leak, puncture, pull off, melt etc. I wanted to do an in-tank fuel pump, but the shape of the CL's tank really doesn't leave me anywhere to do it where the pick-up will be relatively close to the bottom, so external it is.


And lastly, when testing all of the electrical systems, all the lights, accessories & whatnot seem to be working as intended now. Plus, when cranking the bike over with the starter, the retrofitted alternator & CBR rectifier/regulator is putting out 8.5V, a very good sign!
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Old 02-04-2012, 06:11 PM   #8
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Glad this project is still going, keep at it!
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Old 02-04-2012, 06:32 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chobro View Post
Glad this project is still going, keep at it!
+1

This is such a cool project.
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Old 02-11-2012, 01:09 PM   #10
bdjuju
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Can't recall if I've mentioned this earlier (it's been so long..) but I've been trying to solve the fuel pump issue as well, subject is a CB550-4. I really want to use a Suzuki in-tank pump & have a smashed up GSXR tank was planning on grafting the flange area into the bottom of the 550's tank at some point. Maybe some experimentation with a junk CL tank is in order?
The other trick may be to use a smaller 'surge tank', place the pump in that, somewhere in the 'triangle' area under the seat, and just feed it from the main tank.
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:40 AM   #11
toplessFC3Sman OP
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Originally Posted by bdjuju View Post
Can't recall if I've mentioned this earlier (it's been so long..) but I've been trying to solve the fuel pump issue as well, subject is a CB550-4. I really want to use a Suzuki in-tank pump & have a smashed up GSXR tank was planning on grafting the flange area into the bottom of the 550's tank at some point. Maybe some experimentation with a junk CL tank is in order?
The other trick may be to use a smaller 'surge tank', place the pump in that, somewhere in the 'triangle' area under the seat, and just feed it from the main tank.
I was considering the same idea, and had bought a CBR in-tank pump assembly to try to mock it up, but there just wasn't the cross-sectional area to fit the pump in the tank anywhere near the bottom. It would have required some major hacking & re-welding of the tank. Now, IIRC, the 550's tank is a bit wider, so you may be able to fit it, after adjusting where the pickup will sit and welding on a nice flange. This may be version 2 for me too, finding a larger tank that I can do that with, but for the moment I'm sticking with the external.

The triangle under the seat is already taken by a re-located battery box, relays, and the megasquirt itself, so the only empty real-estate I have is between and below the carbs over the transmission. Ive sat and stared at it for a number of nights trying to figure out where to put stuff so that it all fits, and trying to keep the high-current and high-voltage components away from sensitive electronics & fuel connections.
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:32 AM   #12
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Wow, another year gone by? I really need to get in gear & get this done! Anyway, some renewed progress now that the project car is frozen shut, and a friend at work has introduced me to what is basically a crowd-sourced workshop with welding equipment, mills & lathes, electronics lab, all sorts of stuff - i3Detroit, but anyway, this comes at a great time, since the biggest part of the bike holding me back right now is some welding that I need to do on the fuel rails, tank, and a couple fittings. After a lot of consideration and some mock-up, the general layout I'm planning on going with is this:

So the pump draws from the tank at the location for the stock carb feed valve (through a filter, which isn't shown here), and pressurizes the fuel. Now, instead of sending the pressurized fuel through both rails, in one end & out the other, the rails are on their own spur coming off of the high-pressure side of the fuel pressure regulator (FPR), with only an inlet. Plumbing it this way means that I'll need to make sure that the fuel lines running from the rails need to be continuously getting higher so that any air bubbles that get trapped can make their way up to the regulator to get purged. This shouldn't be a problem with the orientation of the throttle bodies, and by capping the other end of the rail, I'll have less tubing running around out near my legs where it could possibly get snagged, and would need fewer other fittings to complete the fuel system. The FPR will be mounted right underneath the tank so that it's higher than the rails, and can drain right back into the tank.

To get the FPR to work properly, I'm going to need to drain into the top of the tank, so that the fuel pressure doesn't change with the amount of gas in the tank, so to do that I'll need to weld a new fitting onto the bottom of the tank with a tube that sticks up near the top so that the fuel will always be flowing out above the fuel level. For the moment I'm just going to weld an NPT bung to the tank, and plan on using a compression fitting with the tube sticking far through it to accomplish this. I also need to weld another fitting on the tank for the outlet, since the stock outlet is stripped and in poor shape. Then I can worry about re-sealing it where the POR15 coating was flaking off.

The fuel pump itself has proven to be a bit of a problem, since I can't use an in-tank pump (which would simplify life substantially - except there isn't room). The smallest external pump I could find was a Walbro GSL393, which is 155 lpm flow, and will be drawing 5-6 amps where I'll be using it. The problem is that the fittings on the ends are M10x1.0 straight thread, and I've had a really hard time finding much that fits that on one side and ends in a compression tube fitting on the other. I could go to NPT or -6 AN in the middle, but then it becomes really bulky. Instead, I'm going to take the M10x1.0 threaded hose barbs that came with it, chop off the hose barb, and weld on a 90* compression fitting for a nice, compact adapter.

All of the various fittings & whatnot for the next stage have been ordered, and hopefully I can try to get it done later this week or early next week. In the mean time, I took a spare fuel rail and pressure regulator from the project RX-7 and hacked it up and threaded it to give me a nice block to screw in some compression fittings.



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Old 02-01-2013, 11:33 AM   #13
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Thanks for all your kind words! What started out as a "hmm... it wouldnt be that hard to..." joking discussion with some friends over a couple beers has kinda taken on a life of its own.

Got some more time to stew over it last night & mock up where the fuel pump, filter, FPR, & fittings on the fuel tank will go. The best place for the pump seems to be laying flat on the back of the transmission, right next to the mount to the frame's spine so I can use that bolt for mounting. This also puts it as the lowest point, so it should have no problem priming/re-priming when I inevitably try to start the bike with the fuel valve off.



Speaking of the fuel valve, it will be in the same location as that picture, but I need to cut off the stock fitting since it's very stripped, and weld on a new NPT bung. The FPR can barely be seen in this next picture - it is way up under the tank (removed in the pic) near the top of the head, so that a continuous uphill run from the injector rails can be made. The little brass fitting in the middle, about 1/3 from the top is the inlet port from the fuel pump, and the high-pressure outlet to the rails is pointing backwards (out of view). The low-pressure outlet to the tank is pointing backwards too, a little higher up.



That position for the FPR should work out, and can be easily mounted to the two center studs at the back of the head holding the cam cover on. Since I'm welding on the tank already, I'll be adding another bung for the fuel return. Im considering putting it on the other side of the tank, but that would force all the fuel that gets returned to flow through the cross-over hose, which may be a restriction when the tank gets low. Plus, I couldn't get a tube inside up to the top of the tank, so it may have to go further forward, requiring tubing to be run forwards over the top of the head & next to the plug wires & coils. I'll need to puzzle on it a bit more before coming to a solution.


All tucked in for the night!
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Old 03-19-2013, 05:49 AM   #14
gravityisnotmyfriend
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Hey, you should talk to toplessFC3Sman over at hondatwins.net

He's doing a very similar project!
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:49 PM   #15
gravityisnotmyfriend
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It's no joke. Seriously, check it out:

http://www.hondatwins.net/forum/view...=2951&start=60
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