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Old 04-18-2005, 11:05 PM   #1
burntflan OP
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adv 640 wheel squeal driving me mad

The front wheel on my '03 640 is driving me F#@ crazy. It squeals. It pops spokes. It refuses to stay true. I've changed the pads. Replaced the DID rim with an Excel. True it obessively. Although, I haven't popped a spoke in 8-days. I'm a hack mechanic who tries, sometime successfully, to fix everything myself but this time I think I may be over my head.
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Old 04-19-2005, 06:20 AM   #2
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The squeal ... from braking right .. not just riding. They all do it, just consider it charming. About the spokes though. My stockers were crap. I am still using the same rims, but have taken them to Buchannans in S. Cal for relacing w/ Heavy Duty Stainless. Not problems since. Wheel true and tension can have a bit of black magic and voodoo to it. Maybe you have tightened them too much. Go to a pro.
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Old 04-19-2005, 06:27 AM   #3
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Loosen your front axle clamps and bounce the front end with the brake applied, sorts out my '04 every time.

Don't know about your spokes though.
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Old 04-19-2005, 07:25 AM   #4
meat popsicle
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there has been a few threads on spokes and brake squeal - search on google for "brake squeal" and "broken spokes" with the switch "site:www.advrider.com" and you should come up with them.

IIRC, the spokes may break when overtightened - its got to be hard to get them balanced right? (I don't true my own wheels... so I have no idea.)

Also, IIRC, someone thought that the brake squeal and the spokes breaking were related - Loaded had a thread on this and it might have been in there. maybe when the spokes are being differentially tightened (untrue?) it puts the brake disc out of allignment with the brake caliper and causes brake squeal. for sure spoke tightening could be involved with spokes breaking.

hope that helps.

someone wanna write up a spoke tensioning/wheel truing guide?
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Old 04-19-2005, 08:27 AM   #5
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Mine still squeal even after the rebuild. The only thing that makes it stop is riding in the dirt. 1/2 an hour of pavement, and they squeal again.

I think the squeal comes from the rotor. It has splits in it. Like tounge and grooves almost. I think it creates a tuning fork effect.
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Old 04-19-2005, 01:27 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G.Kennedy
The only thing that makes it stop is riding in the dirt. 1/2 an hour of pavement, and they squeal again.
Took the words right out of my mouth. I put new SBS pads in this weekend and just before I came to a stop, it would let out a bit of a howl (front only). I thought, great, I didn't have it with stock pads since they were new, now I've got the squeel back.
During the trail ride, and after a pressure wash, no noise. It may have been the disc quiet I applied to the back of the pads setting in though. Or the dirt filled in the gaps.
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Old 04-19-2005, 08:50 AM   #7
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Laugh spokes braking vs brake squeeal

Quote:
Originally Posted by burntflan
The front wheel on my '03 640 is driving me F#@ crazy. It squeals. It pops spokes. It refuses to stay true. I've changed the pads. Replaced the DID rim with an Excel. True it obessively. Although, I haven't popped a spoke in 8-days. I'm a hack mechanic who tries, sometime successfully, to fix everything myself but this time I think I may be over my head.
ktms are notorious for breaking spokes,,especially the chromed versions,,,they vie for that honor with 'bulldog spokes' and spline drive nipples,,,,

out east, an old yankee neighbor of mine had an eye opening quote he laid upon me one day...when i was trying to solve a problem using the the same ingredients,,,he told me...'woody,,,,its hard to make chicken soup out of chicken s...!!"

and thats what's happening to that front wheel of yours,,,changing the rims to suns or excels will minimize the routine bending ya hear about,,,buying better spokes ..ie.buchanans will also improve your odds....

however i have an even better way...i call it ..SUPERLACE ing..essentially,,,,a combination of choosing an optimal combination of spoke/rim sizes/material,,,lace pattern and blueprinting your wheel,,when i'm through,,you will posses the toughest wheel around,,i guarantee my work for a year,,,customers are still riding around on superlaced wheels i built 30 years ago,,,,,i have used buchanans spokes bent and sized to my specs the entire time,,,you can spend the time you are currently using obsessing over that wheel of yours for more constructive endeavours....watching the scenery en-joy-ing your ride to name a few...

remember when you buy a spoke kit from buchanans they essentially sell you a replica of what was in your wheel,,,yes they may be a better quality spoke,,,, more often than not the solution is not to put a better band aid on the problem but rather figure out why am i having this probem to begin with,,,fiquring out a better way is my favorite domain,,,

as for the squeeling brakes ...you can be rest assured there is no correlation between their squeeal and your snapping spokes,,,,brake squeel is a vibration set up beween the pads/disc and caliper,,,,cleaning /deglazing your brakes and pads with brake cleaner and fine sandpaper 300-400 grit is a good starting point,,,many brake pads have an anti vibration pad installed between the pad and the caliper piston...make sure it is there,,,and finally a dab of silicone placed between the piston and pad subdues the vibration that induces the squeal...holler if that helps

i have written many posts in recent time addressing numerous issues regarding bent rims, better wheels etc,,, you may find more answers there...

woody
woody@woodyswheelworks.com
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Old 04-19-2005, 08:59 AM   #8
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here we go again..... the squealing front wheel and broken spoke thing.

been there doode. ktm has the shittiest fucking spokes on the planet. buy some buchanan spokes and relace the wheels. i have had several breaks.. none have flipped me off the bike. cat90210 had one break and flip him off his 640 at 70 mph. ... so if you think its too pricey to relace think about sliding down the interstate on yer face at 70mph.
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Old 04-19-2005, 09:50 AM   #9
meat popsicle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loadedagain
cat90210


Tough Love from Loaded again...



Woody, you have a price range for your superlacing jobbies? Many are very gun-shy of wheel upgrades because it usually runs in the thousands. Would you recommend superlacing/blueprinting the stock DID rims and hubs with upgraded spokes?

not trying to hem you into a corner or set prices, just thought that a little ballpark figuring would help folks consider your work.
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Old 04-19-2005, 12:54 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meat popsicle


Tough Love from Loaded again...



Woody, you have a price range for your superlacing jobbies? Many are very gun-shy of wheel upgrades because it usually runs in the thousands. Would you recommend superlacing/blueprinting the stock DID rims and hubs with upgraded spokes?

not trying to hem you into a corner or set prices, just thought that a little ballpark figuring would help folks consider your work.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74623

Quote:
Originally Posted by woody's wheel works
FYI...
standard lace and true.....ie..stock rim to stock hub with stock spokes/nipples..$70

custom lace and true...any deviation using stock lace pattern...ie..different rim or spokes or nipples or hub....$80

SUPERLACE and true...the optimal blueprinted wheel,,,preseated spokes and nipples,,optimal lace patterns and spoke nipple sizes...one year warranty against catastrophic wheel failure due to spokes loosening /breaking from normal use.......$90-99....

PS...'normal use'...does not include hitting a brick wall at 100mph and expecting me to replace and true your mangled wheels/spokes

when using EXCEL rims we have found,,the only way to keep the spokes from loosening is to SUPERSIZE the nipples.... .343",,spreads the load over a larger area,,,they are much beefier and we can torque them tighter..also cost a few bucks more

NOTE...we are supersizing all the big fourstrokes and adventure/enduro bikes these days because of all the extra punishment they take,,,what worked a few years ago no longer holds water nowadays,,,
riders are jumping mongo tabletops,,,and going much faster on fireroads and mountain passes with much heavier equipment,,,,,,,
i am continually on the cutting edge of providing tougher more durable wheels ,,,,you'll be seeing pics and reports from the latest customers shortly,,,
i am convinced that narrower tougher rear rims are part of the solution to keeping them from bending,,, we just sent out a SUPERLACED 1.85x21 front and 2.75x18 rear SUN combo on a 950 Adventure over the weekend...i have a sneaky suspicion he will be a very happy camper

PS...so are we more expensive than buchanans???....
when you compare apples to apples we are slightly less on the labor end,,,sell sun rims and oem stainless steel spoke/nipple replacement kits for the same price...if i can source other rims for less money i pass that saving on to you,,,

MOST SUPERLACED wheels require custom spoke sets,,bent and sized to my specs by buchanan...they are a few dollars more as well as the addition of oversized nipples,,,...SUPERLACING..requires additional time in re-drilling and re-angling/countersinking the hub and rim,,not to mention additional time fiquring out all the specs,,,i can rebuild 2 regular wheels in the time it takes to superlace one of yours...SUPERLACING is my gift to the racers out there..so pass the word

FYI....we have used buchanans' spokes and nipples for 32 years...have seldom occured any spoke failures attributed to their workmanship,,hence with my ability to put the right combos together i can offer you a warranty on what i do....and am currently working with another manufacturer who is designing rims and hubs with a one year warranty,,,and then i'll warranty the entire wheel!!!!!....i still have customers racing around in vintage mx and roadracing etc on wheels i built 30 years ago!!!...

years ago....when i cruised by buchanans with some of my handiwork,,,MR.Buchanan himself gathered his troops around and showed them my stuff..."Now,THOSE are some WHEELs!!!!!" he exclaimed....John Ulrich of Roadracing World/Cycle News/Cycle World upon receiving his Superlaced Ducati wheels calls me up ...."Those aren't wheels!!!...those are works of art!!!"

remember....i am committed to QUALITY...those wheels have to work as good as they look and look as good as they work,,,nuff said,,,and i'll let you all fiqure out who's the 'best'....woody

PPS..you can check buchanans prices ,,,www.buchananspokes.com
'crash' is putting together a website for us...www.woodyswheelworks.com soon you'll be able to get all the data straight at one place
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Old 04-19-2005, 01:34 PM   #11
burntflan OP
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Thanks

Thanks for all the advice. I've tried pretty much everything except for the SS spokes and the blueprinting, and will consider superlacing. I'm still not convincd the squeal and spokes are unrelated, as (and I may be imagining it) but I swear the squeal lowers in intensity after a spoke pops. How do i know, because since I've been paying attention, they almost always break when coming to a hard stop on a downhill (i live in SF so there's no getting around it). I've been lucky so far, ony once did one of the mothers flare out and get tangled in the rotor/brake assembly but I was going slow and all it did was take some meat out of a non-essential part of the bracket. I definitely don't want to experience the same thing at 70, so I'll try the ss spokes and if that doesn't work...

G.Kennedy is right. Covered the whole thing in a mud a few weeks ago, rode it home from Clear Creek and it didn't squeal or bust spoke until after it had a bath. Maybe that's the solution.

Question for Woody. All the broken spokes seem to on the rotor side.
Is that an indication of anything? That last time I had the wheel off I tried a little experiment and slightly overtorqued the opposite side and did the rotor side just at spec. It seems to have worked so far. Am I just spitting in the wind? Or am I on to something?

Also, if you don't mind another one, what do you consider to be acceptable run-out. I know a lot of threads say 1/8" but that seems like way too much. When I'm lucky I can get it to 1/100 side-to-side and 1/50 up and do

One more. Anyone in the Bay Area planning a day trip anytime soon? I just put on some TKC 80's and would like to get some more dirt on them before they're killed by the daily commute...

Wheel Truing...here's the basics...
http://www.off-road.com/dirtbike/db101w.html
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Old 04-19-2005, 02:09 PM   #12
meat popsicle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burntflan
One more. Anyone in the Bay Area planning a day trip anytime soon? I just put on some TKC 80's and would like to get some more dirt on them before they're killed by the daily commute...

Wheel Truing...here's the basics...
http://www.off-road.com/dirtbike/db101w.html
this weekend is a big get together in Kernville, CA. People will be there from Thursday to Sunday camping riding drinking eating... I will be leaving friday but showing up saturday AM because I have a stop to make nearby. Check out the regional forums or post a ride idea to the locals!

if you want more info on Kernville lemme know. its about 6 hours from the south bay to there but the last part of the ride is into the South Sierra. the desert is just the other side - most riding will probably be there due to the time of year (high country snowed in still).
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Old 04-19-2005, 10:54 PM   #13
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run-out ,,,and broken spokes etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by burntflan
Thanks for all the advice. I've tried pretty much everything except for the SS spokes and the blueprinting, and will consider superlacing. I'm still not convincd the squeal and spokes are unrelated, .....

Question for Woody. All the broken spokes seem to on the rotor side.
Is that an indication of anything? That last time I had the wheel off I tried a little experiment and slightly overtorqued the opposite side and did the rotor side just at spec. It seems to have worked so far. Am I just spitting in the wind? Or am I on to something?

Also, if you don't mind another one, what do you consider to be acceptable run-out. I know a lot of threads say 1/8" but that seems like way too much. When I'm lucky I can get it to 1/100 side-to-side and 1/50 up and down
FYI...we can save you money by recycling as many of the components in your wheel that are worthy of being used again...for example:

.. the ktm 950 adventure front wheel has super soft BEHR rims that wad up,,,the spokes are ok,,,so low budget upgrade would be to replace the rim with an excel,sun or akront,,,alot of the rear ktm wheels had DID rims that would crack at the nipples and almost all had /have severe spoke breakage problems,,,now you tell me of the 640 and its tendency to snap spokes... and i will say replace em with ss equivalents for an improvement....BUT if ya don't want to have this conversation again...SUPERLACE it and be done with it

the cost difference between the two techniques is less than $40...you just can not replicate the work and know how i put into a SUPERLACE for the $40 difference

1..regarding the a-ha s you are having,,,correlations i've observed over the years....
a) spokes break that have too high a tensile strength to them
b) chrome spokes break more than any others
c)loose spokes break quicker than tight ones
d)wrong spoke patterns for your riding style contribute to
wheel/spoke failure
e)the spokes that transfer the energy from the hub to the rim during hard acceleration and severe braking...ie the max load transfering spokes break before the others
f)soft hubs/rims,,sag and loosen your spokes and are the culprits behind mysterious unexplicable wheel failures


2..regarding run-out...all street/roadrace machines leave with runout less than +/- .010 laterally and longtitudinally,,,,dual-sport/mx +/- .015...
on used hammered dirt bike wheels that never go on the road. we will allow +/- .025.......you can get by with +/-.100.even!!!!..the earth and big knobbies are very forgiving and don't give much feedback to the rider,,,as evidenced by most dirt-riders never noticing how out of wack their wheels are...get on the road and ya start to notice the difference quicker

FYI...the more road oriented your dual sport tires are the quicker you will notice any deviations greater than +/-.020''

woody's wheel works screwed with this post 04-20-2005 at 08:46 AM
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