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Old 10-03-2012, 12:12 PM   #1
maigashi OP
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New bike, bad tires and a learning curve I've overshot

Got myself a lava orange f800gs. Loving it all round. Coming off a KLR600 which was used like it should be, with open disregard for safety and physics. New bike has Shinko 705's on it. Nice road tire but the idea that 20% off road portion of this tire is anything more than crossing your lawn on the way to the road is a joke. Anything remotely soft or deep and this is terrifying. front end feels like it is omnidirectional and any throttle at all leaves a cloud of dust and sideways movement. Granted I am new to the available horsepower. More used to the full power or full brake sort of riding. But I am excited to mount my new set of TKC. Had them on the klr and loved them. All this being said, any tips for the aggressive rider on the heavyweight off roader? KLR was heavy the hp was more subdued and the fear of wrecking it seemed lower. Tips for exercises in the gravel pit to help with the transition?
Thanks
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:21 PM   #2
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Actually the Shinko 705 is considered, oddly- a 75-25.

You beat yourself out of that extra 5%....

I put some on my KLR 650 about 1,500 miles ago, and like em for street and gravel roads. Couple times I asked it to climb a little goat trail off road and thought they were OK for occasional dirty-duty, but nothing too aggressive. Great road tire, mine don't care about rain or tar snakes as of yet. Cheap as hell too.

I am watching to see how many miles they go, and they may stay on my "I would get em again" list if they last 4500 miles or so.
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:29 PM   #3
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Its funny that you don't think that the 705s are a capable off road tire. While other issues are probably going to prevent me from mounting up another set, I've always found them to be a more than capable dirt tire. In fact, I was out with a buddy today, and he has 705s on his Wee Strom. I have to give him credit...he handled the deep mud, water crossings and technical sections of the trail very well.

Me, on the other hand, chose a bad line and tipped over in the mud. With TKC80s.

It ain't the bike, it ain't the tires. Its the RIDER.
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:30 PM   #4
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Well put sir.
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Old 10-03-2012, 01:00 PM   #5
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I will accept my portion of the blame. Have not tried the tire on hard trail or in the mud. I was in silty dirt and sand. I have a hard time believing that the tire did not contribute to my overall difficulties. Bad technique, sure. New to the bike, oh yeah. Scared, um.... no. But all that being said, any tire can take you anywhere, guys have travelled me world on street tires and little 250's, but to all you purists, I would say, why? I ca ride in sand with the skinko's. I can do mud, I can do trail. Bu why would I want to fight with the bike or heaven forbid slow down, when there is rubber our there that allows me to ignore these limitations.
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Old 10-03-2012, 04:13 PM   #6
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Pretend it is a 500lb KLR and ride faster. I thought mine was a grown up KLX, until I rode it. It does not tolerate timid riders.

All my laydowns have occured because I was apprehensive about the weight. Gas and go applies, because it generally goes where you point it.

Once you got the basics, riding is more mental than physical.
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Old 10-04-2012, 03:58 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsatdm View Post
Pretend it is a 500lb KLR and ride faster. I thought mine was a grown up KLX, until I rode it. It does not tolerate timid riders.

All my laydowns have occured because I was apprehensive about the weight. Gas and go applies, because it generally goes where you point it.

Once you got the basics, riding is more mental than physical.
Good points.

If you watch that Touratech video with the pro rider and the sand tyre, watch it in slow motion and you'll see he hits the throttle just prior to turning, and he tends to hold the bike a little more upright and actually "steer" until the front end starts to bite. Once he has the traction he starts to tip in more. Sort of "body in, bike out" style.

Reminds me of MX and slippery berms a little.

It seems to work with the weight and balance of the F800.

I notice far less instances of the front wheel seeming to push out from under me.

Technique is everything, and everything is technique. At least that's what one of my Warrant Officers used to yell at me while throwing grenade simulators at me.
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Old 10-03-2012, 04:24 PM   #8
C-Stain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maigashi View Post
I will accept my portion of the blame. Have not tried the tire on hard trail or in the mud. I was in silty dirt and sand. I have a hard time believing that the tire did not contribute to my overall difficulties. Bad technique, sure. New to the bike, oh yeah. Scared, um.... no. But all that being said, any tire can take you anywhere, guys have travelled me world on street tires and little 250's, but to all you purists, I would say, why? I ca ride in sand with the skinko's. I can do mud, I can do trail. Bu why would I want to fight with the bike or heaven forbid slow down, when there is rubber our there that allows me to ignore these limitations.













I don't know what to tell you. I've put over 25,000Km on Shinko's in the past two years, all on a DL1000 V-Strom. I've taken the bike in places it should never have gone. Multiple times. I've never fought, or felt limited by the tire. I find sand, no matter what tire, a pain in the ass to ride in. But generally, I don't slow down, (occasionally, I may fall down) but compared to my experience with TKC80s (being left stranded in Labrador) I have found them to be a more than adequate tire. I'm not trying to be ball buster here, but every picture above was achieved while riding on Shinko 705s.

The Wee in the mudhole picture handled the mud much better than my TKC did today - I couldn't put the bike in a straight line to save my life, but the lesser experienced rider had no problem with his tires and a less off-road capable bike.

Give the tires a chance...really. You can't beat them for the price.
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Old 10-03-2012, 05:21 PM   #9
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another vote for the 705's.
I laughed when you talked about riding across your yard, they suck in wet grass .
I ride about 50/50 unimproved road / black top. Work good for both location for me.
I also would not want to run them in deep mud, but I do see slime coat on some of the dirt roads early in the morning and they seem to at least be predictable.
I am about to put on my 2nd rear.

But I would not run them on my Dirt Bike
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Old 10-03-2012, 05:36 PM   #10
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Definition of Mud

Dry Mud. Different from thick wet Mud

Don't mean to bust your balls either but....Shinko 705 great in dry Mud (just like concrete - pic1 & 2) not much better than a street tire when mud is real slimey or an inch or more thick. If it had been raining a lot more in pic 5, shinko 705 would have had lot more trouble. (Nice dry stretches of mud between little bit of wet mud no count).

I ride Shinko 705's on my 1150 GS all the time and I think they are a GREAT tire, I don't do serious mud in them (inch or more thick) I have smaller bikes for that.

The 705 will serve you well over dry gravel (as in pic 4). They'll do well over coarser stuff too.

I think to the OP, my advice is differnet. Don't try and bust your balls on day one with your new Bike. Learn it, feel how it behaves. It'll be different from a KLR, it will likely be a lot less forgiving when needed to brake quickly etc. It takes time and lots of practice to ride a bigger bike like that well and IMHO it is a different skill from handling a smaller bike. (Not that I am an expert at either).

The Shinko 705 is a great compromise for your bike, really good on pavement & dry gravel. If you really want to hit wet gravel and/or mud TKC's will serve you better.

S1
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Old 10-03-2012, 06:02 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s1marks View Post
Dry Mud. Different from thick wet Mud

Don't mean to bust your balls either but....Shinko 705 great in dry Mud (just like concrete - pic1 & 2) not much better than a street tire when mud is real slimey or an inch or more thick. If it had been raining a lot more in pic 5, shinko 705 would have had lot more trouble. (Nice dry stretches of mud between little bit of wet mud no count).


S1
This is the deep, wet, soupy mud hole we went through this morning. Superior handling from the 705s. Just sayin'

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Old 10-03-2012, 06:28 PM   #12
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Laugh

I have rode um all... this year and from now on...705's for me and all me riding buddies are going that way too!
good it dirt? hell yet....
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Old 10-03-2012, 11:38 PM   #13
s1marks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C-Stain View Post
This is the deep, wet, soupy mud hole we went through this morning. Superior handling from the 705s. Just sayin'
Agree, that is a bit more like it. A lot of that sort of stuff and I have to think that TKC's are better suited. When that gets a lot wetter it will be hell to get through with the Shinko's, they're going to slide all over. I know at any sort of speed at all I'd feel more comfortable on TKC's.

Also, meant to say to the OP. On the bigger bike, 'Stand Up', I'm sure you do that a lot on smaller bikes in the gnarly stuff, but it will help you to get the feel of the bigger machine, particularly if you are doing that in the drier more compact stuff for long period. IMHO it's a good way to get to learn the bike.

S1
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:51 PM   #14
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Throttle control, and the effect on the bike as a whole was brought home to me the other weekend.

I got about 40 mins up a steep, muddy and rock strewn fire trail, and I was fairly focussed on staying upright, when I realised that I had about 10 mins of smooth red clay/very steep section to climb out of it all. Lots of rain over the preceding 2 weeks meant it was going to be acres of fun.

I thought over the sense of turning back, plotted the length of the detour in my mind, looked at the fuel gauge, recalculate, extrapolate, fudge factor.....oh shit. OK then, lets get on with it.

On the climb out I used everything I've learned about keeping a big fat skaty bike upright on smooth wet steep red clay.

The E07 rear has nearly 9000km on it and about 6mm tread depth left at the centre. The Pirelli Scorpion MT90AT on the front is about 4000km old and in fairly good condition.

It was all throttle control. At times it wouldn't turn and I was on and off the throttle searching for the right amount of load on the front, trying to stay upright, trying not to stall at really low revs in 2nd as I searched for more torque. It gets a bit funky when you are fast running out of track coming into hairpin turns. Downshift to 1st and wheelspin to a stop.

The only surface I've ridden on that was worse is frozen red clay. That hurt. I think my friend recorded 5 face plants from me on the BMW that morning.Plus, 3 stall and falls while climbing over snow covered logs. 1 cross rut and face plant in a frozen puddle when the ice broke half way across. 1 slide off track into bush at the bottom of a long descent with an off camber right hand hairpin. It gets old fast. I was getting very cranky. One second upright...the next second on face.

I've found that knobbies make very little difference on this type of surface.

BMW and snow riding isn't something that you should "just go and have a crack at". You need to learn a little more about big heavy bikes and limited traction first. It doesn't snow here much. Thankfully. I've done it 2 up and I am still amazed by how completely wrong it can go and how fast it goes wrong. Try doing a 360 when you are 2 up with gear rolling along the track at about 50 kph. See what that does for your heart rate. See what that does for the knee you had a reconstruction on when you slap the foot on the ground and take all the weight while dragging your boot sideways. My wife insisted I stop IMMEDIATELY. I couldn't. I had dislocated my knee and my boot was dragging along the ground next to the bike. It didn't tickle. Took a while to fix. I was a tad worried, as I couldn't get off the bike, couldn't really stop with the load I had on. I stood up on my left leg and let the right hang and jiggle until it seemed to fix itself. It didn't hurt as much, but it still hurt like crazy.


You ride along and you think, "yep, I've got it all under control" and then it suddenly just spins around and around and everything you do has the exact opposite effect. You realise that you never had control at all. It's an illusion. You are always that fine line away from failure when there's ice and snow in the equation. But I suppose some of you Northern Hemisphere types already know that.

Ahhhh....ridiculously heavy fully loaded bikes and frozen dirt roads....what's not to love?



This is pretty much most fire trails within 500km of my front door. There's a few of them. Unfortunately the Forestry workers use red clay as the base and cover it with gravel that ranges from 1/2 inch ball bearing stuff, to base ball and even house brick sized stuff in the really wet spots.

Long steady gradients tend to end up as smooth red clay wheel ruts. Then winter comes. Not so good.

Snowy screwed with this post 10-05-2012 at 12:00 AM
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Old 10-03-2012, 05:52 PM   #15
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any tips for the aggressive rider on the heavyweight off roader?
Ya, get up over the front of it. The throttle is your friend.
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