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View Results: Would you buy a 370 lbs wet, 80-90 HP, 700-800cc twin, priced between 690 and 990?
Tomorrow, bring it on! 425 87.99%
Too small, prefer the exisiting 990 and upcoming 1190. 26 5.38%
Too big, prefer a single. 26 5.38%
Not interested in a KTM. 6 1.24%
Voters: 483. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-28-2012, 11:41 AM   #1
LukasM OP
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Can KTM build a significantly lighter 700-800cc twin? Is there a market for it?

Lot's of discussion about this topic in the 1190 thread already, so in order not to derail it any more I'm starting a new thread.

Many of the "old school" 950/990 owners are claiming that this would be a useless exercise as you would just give up a lot of horsepower for only a couple of lbs of weight loss.

Well, I don't agree.

The weight difference between a 690 and a 990 (non ABS!) is around 140 lbs, with the engines accounting for around 40 lbs of that. Considering the smaller displacement and that manufacturing technologies have improved, a die cast 700-800cc twin engine should be at least 10 lbs lighter than the 990, probably more.

So you've got around 110 lbs difference after the engine, you don't think you can beef up a 690 chassis enough to deal with 80-90 horses and add a fairing and be left over with a significant portion of that? The 450RR rear tank that bolts to the 690 chassis is available already and weighs maybe 1 lb more, and with it's 18 liters of fuel will give you better range than a 990 has.

And don't forget that the 690 already has 48mm forks, 21"/18" wheels with Dirt Star rims, the same brakes as the 950SE and that the 690 rally replicas and even the factory LC4 rally bikes (some sporting a >80HP 730cc engine) run through the desert at up to 200 km/h for two weeks during the Dakar using that same trellis frame and I have never heard of anybody having problems, have you?

I think with some modern and creative engineering a 80-90 HP 700-800cc twin with 360-380lbs (wet no fuel) is a realistic goal, and I'd buy one tomorrow.


What do you guys think?
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Old 10-28-2012, 12:05 PM   #2
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KTM won't build it, but it can still be built...





Interested to hear people's thoughts...


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Old 10-28-2012, 12:07 PM   #3
crofrog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LukasM View Post
Lot's of discussion about this topic in the 1190 thread already, so in order not to derail it any more I'm starting a new thread.

Many of the "old school" 950/990 owners are claiming that this would be a useless exercise as you would just give up a lot of horsepower for only a couple of lbs of weight loss.

Well, I don't agree.

The weight difference between a 690 and a 990 (non ABS!) is around 140 lbs, with the engines accounting for around 40 lbs of that. Considering the smaller displacement and that manufacturing technologies have improved, a die cast 700-800cc twin engine should be at least 10 lbs lighter than the 990, probably more.

So you've got around 110 lbs difference after the engine, you don't think you can beef up a 690 chassis enough to deal with 80-90 horses and add a fairing and be left over with a significant portion of that? The 450RR rear tank that bolts to the 690 chassis is available already and weighs maybe 1 lb more, and with it's 18 liters of fuel will give you better range than a 990 has.

And don't forget that the 690 already has 48mm forks, 21"/18" wheels with Dirt Star rims, the same brakes as the 950SE and that the 690 rally replicas and even the factory LC4 rally bikes (some sporting a >80HP 730cc engine) run through the desert at up to 200 km/h for two weeks during the Dakar using that same trellis frame and I have never heard of anybody having problems, have you?

I think with some modern and creative engineering a 80-90 HP 700-800cc twin with 360-380lbs (wet no fuel) is a realistic goal, and I'd buy one tomorrow.


What do you guys think?
the 690E has no sub frame, no provision for a luggage rack, not designed for 2 up and single front disc, no nav tower or wind protection.

All of those thing add weight and all of those things are things the market would want to make it compete with the other 800cc bikes... If you design it as a narrowly focused dirt adventure tourer and except people to travel lightly and are willing to trade ruggedness for weight I think it could be done and use more composite and TI construction it could be done.



If the 9x0 is so heavy where's the weight savings to be had? Short of a major cost increase to more exotic materials and AL frames
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Old 10-28-2012, 12:08 PM   #4
roundtripping
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Don't know about feasibility, but I can tell you I'd buy one tomorrow as well.
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Old 10-28-2012, 12:16 PM   #5
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I'd be all in for a lighter 750 cc parallel twin offroad worthy adv bike from KTM.

Bring it on..........
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Old 10-28-2012, 12:25 PM   #6
crofrog
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Originally Posted by Yellow Pig View Post
I'd be all in for a lighter 750 cc parallel twin offroad worthy adv bike from KTM.

Bring it on..........
Why would you want the extra width of a parrell twin? Although the possibility of simplified exhaust routing is interesting.
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Old 10-28-2012, 12:14 PM   #7
Schannulleke
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Agreed with LukasM. We are looking at something right in between te 950SE and the 690.

Take the 690 as a starting point, give it a modern light 790cc V-twin engine with lets say 90hp. Improve/reinforce the 690 frame where needed (my guess is not much reinforcement will be needed). Single exhaust muffler. Subframe rear tank. Make more bike versions from this platform (however all R-verions):
- Enduro: small tank, minimalistic instruments
- Adventure: medium tank, improved instruments, improved passenger comfort, dual front brake discs
- Rally: large tank, improved instruments
- Supermoto: small tank, minimalistic instruments
- Touring: medium tank, improved instruments, improved passenger comfort, dual front brake discs
- Duke:...
- RC:...

Voila, KTM could build 7 motorcycles out of the engineering effort for 1 good lightweight modular platform. Maximized interchangeability of components and differentiation with a minimum varieties of components:
- 3 types of fuel tank: small, medium, large
- 2 types of instrument panels
-...

Yes this could certainly be done with a significant weight reduction compared to the current corresponding LC8 motorcycles.
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Old 10-28-2012, 12:48 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schannulleke View Post
Agreed with LukasM. We are looking at something right in between te 950SE and the 690.

Take the 690 as a starting point, give it a modern light 790cc V-twin engine with lets say 90hp. Improve/reinforce the 690 frame where needed (my guess is not much reinforcement will be needed). Single exhaust muffler. Subframe rear tank. Make more bike versions from this platform (however all R-verions):
- Enduro: small tank, minimalistic instruments
- Adventure: medium tank, improved instruments, improved passenger comfort, dual front brake discs
- Rally: large tank, improved instruments
- Supermoto: small tank, minimalistic instruments
- Touring: medium tank, improved instruments, improved passenger comfort, dual front brake discs
- Duke:...
- RC:...

Voila, KTM could build 7 motorcycles out of the engineering effort for 1 good lightweight modular platform. Maximized interchangeability of components and differentiation with a minimum varieties of components:
- 3 types of fuel tank: small, medium, large
- 2 types of instrument panels
-...

Yes this could certainly be done with a significant weight reduction compared to the current corresponding LC8 motorcycles.
I think you missed one.

Easy to lower for a short person or a chick bike. How many guys would buy this for their wife? A REAL off road/adventure bike.
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Old 10-28-2012, 12:56 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Tee2 View Post
I think you missed one.

Easy to lower for a short person or a chick bike. How many guys would buy this for their wife? A REAL off road/adventure bike.
haha, and suddenly we see why all the bikes brought to the market are such compromises.
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Old 10-28-2012, 01:44 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Tee2 View Post
I think you missed one.

Easy to lower for a short person or a chick bike. How many guys would buy this for their wife? A REAL off road/adventure bike.
Oh bugger off! Seriously, there are already a million lame bikes... A REAL off road bike needs to have real suspension. Buy a f650gs if you are short and need to flat foot it.
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Old 10-28-2012, 05:16 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by wilmar13 View Post
Oh bugger off! Seriously, there are already a million lame bikes... A REAL off road bike needs to have real suspension. Buy a f650gs if you are short and need to flat foot it.
Hey I was just replying to Schannulleke's message that a lower bike would fit into his 7 bike one engine platform. I have no need for a low bike. I can flat foot my 990. Now I wish I went with the R, but I ride a lot of two-up and thought the ABS would be helpful.

I knew a guy that rode a lowered f650. He would buy a 990 in a heartbeat if he could get it low enough.

I hope KTM makes a 700-800 twin. It would be cool.
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Old 10-29-2012, 11:52 PM   #12
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Agreed ! No one who spends any amount of time in the mojave wants a short-suspended bike with soft springs; plenty of those on the street, but any time beating up your spine and you will soon realize the value of suspension travel. . . . imho
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilmar13 View Post
Oh bugger off! Seriously, there are already a million lame bikes... A REAL off road bike needs to have real suspension. Buy a f650gs if you are short and need to flat foot it.
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Old 10-31-2012, 02:33 PM   #13
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I'm also in the buy-one-tomorrow camp. This would be exactly what I would want -- with the caveat that it would have to be more reliable than the 690. And I could live with 400ish wet; but the 460 of the current middleweights is just too much.

And I'm surprised no one has jumped in to this gap yet. I really wonder if any of the manufacturers have people that really ride in this class.

Since they won't, I'll probably buy a Sertao soon. I know it's porky and has issues, but it's the closest to what I want, and I think I can manage the issues, as I have a good dealer.

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Old 10-28-2012, 12:18 PM   #14
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Let's start with the SE and see what we can do to make it lighter without reducing comfort.

1) Loose 10lbs from creative subframe/fuel tank combination?
2) Loose another 10lbs from simplifying the exhaust with a 2-1
3) Loose another 10lb from engine weight
4) Another 5lbs from redesigned frame+swingarm
5) Add 5lbs for some sort of simple rally fairing ala raiddesigns

So, (maybe I am gallant with the lbs) it seems that a 185 kgs 700/800 twin is possible, fully fueled and with lower CG than the SE.
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Old 10-28-2012, 12:25 PM   #15
cyborg
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I'm IN, for a V-twin!
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