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Old 12-11-2012, 09:24 PM   #1
ParaMud OP
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Braking in a Turn

I posted the rear brake in an emergency thread and was remembering back to my MSF days.
In MSF we did a exercise where, in the middle of a turn, you have to stand the bike up to brake.

Well that is almost never an option in real life. If you stand the bike up in a turn, you will either go slamming into the side wall of a canyon, or into oncoming traffic.

Why is the class teaching this?

Saying the tire can only do one thing at a time, turning or braking. That is completely false. Most of the time the tire is not even close to it's braking loose point. As long as you apply the brakes smoothly, even at the apex of a turn to brake for an oncoming car rock in the road.

I think by teaching this, they are teaching us bad habits.
There are tons of people doing this on youtube videos.

Your opinion?
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:30 PM   #2
Tosh Togo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaMud View Post
I posted the rear brake in an emergency thread and was remembering back to my MSF days.
In MSF we did a exercise where, in the middle of a turn, you have to stand the bike up to brake.

Well that is almost never an option in real life. If you stand the bike up in a turn, you will either go slamming into the side wall of a canyon, or into oncoming traffic.

Why is the class teaching this?

Saying the tire can only do one thing at a time, turning or braking. That is completely false. Most of the time the tire is not even close to it's braking loose point. As long as you apply the brakes smoothly, even at the apex of a turn to brake for an oncoming car rock in the road.

I think by teaching this, they are teaching us bad habits.
There are tons of people doing this on youtube videos.

Your opinion?

MSF courses are designed for green riders, and the technique they choose to teach is the best/safest for that group.

Trail-braking is a skill to be learned later, if they survive long enough.

PS- most bikes will stand up to some degree when you get on the front brake, so perhaps the MSF is just cutting out a step?.








And .....on a scale of one to ten, your rant is about a 2.5
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:37 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tosh Togo View Post
MSF courses are designed for green riders, and the technique they choose to teach is the best/safest for that group.

Trail-braking is a skill to be learned later, if they survive long enough.

PS- most bikes will stand up to some degree when you get on the front brake, so perhaps the MSF is just cutting out a step?.








And .....on a scale of one to ten, your rant is about a 2.5
Haha I appreciate the rating.
I disagree that trail-braking is a skill that should be learned later. The skill is in use almost everytime they ride, they just don't realize it.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:18 PM   #4
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During the beginner course there's a lot of information to absorb. Most of it you don't. Serious riders keep learning and practicing.

From another forum:

Quote:
"If you have to stop in a corner, one of two things will happen. One, you will stand the bike up and ride it off the shoulder and into whatever is over there. Or two, you will lay the bike down and slide off the shoulder of the road. Braking is done before, or after a corner. The best thing to do before taking a corner is to grind the thought "I'm going to turn this corner" into your mind."

Hiya FZ1 lovers.
I’ve stewed for two days about the above quote taken from another FZ1OA thread...and finally decided to launch this thread. In past years I would have just rolled my eyes and muttered, “Whatever”…but not anymore. I want to tell you that there are measureable, explainable, repeatable, do-able reasons that make great riders great. And brake usage is at the very tippity-top of these reasons. It’ll save your life, it’ll make you a champion. It will save and grow our sport.
I’ll ask this one favor: Would you open your mind to what I’m about to write, then go out and mess around with it?

To begin: Realize that great motorcycle riding is more subtle in its inputs than most of us imagine. I bet you are moving your hand too quickly with initial throttle and brakes. Moving your right foot too quickly with initial rear brake. The difference between a lap record and a highside is minute, almost-immeasureable differences in throttle and lean angle. The difference between hitting the Camaro in your lane and missing it by a foot is the little things a rider can do with speed control at lean angle. Brakes at lean angle. Brakes in a corner.

Yes, a rider can brake in a corner. Yes. For sure. Guaranteed. I promise. Happens all the time. I do it on every ride, track or street. Yes, a rider can stop in a corner. In fact, any student who rides with the Yamaha Champions Riding School will tell you it’s possible. Complete stop, mid-corner…no drama. Newbies and experts alike.
There are some interesting processes to this sport, mostly revolving around racing. But as I thought about this thread, putting numbers on each thought made more sense because explaining these concepts relies on busting some myths and refining your inputs. Some things must be ingrained…like #1 below.

1)You never, ever, never stab at the brakes. Understand a tire’s grip this way: Front grip is divided between lean angle points and brake points, rear grip is lean angle points and acceleration points, lean angle points and brake points. Realize that the tire will take a great load, but it won’t take a sudden load…and so you practice this smooth loading at every moment in/on every vehicle. If you stab the brakes (um...or throttle...) in your pickup, you berate yourself because you know that the stab, at lean angle on your motorcycle (and bicycle, btw), will be a crash.

2)Let’s examine tire grip. If you’re leaned over at 95% (95 points in my book Sport Riding Techniques and fastersafer.com) of the tires’ available grip, you still have 5% of that grip available for braking (or accelerating). But maybe you only have 3%!!! You find out because you always add braking “points” in a smooth, linear manner. As the front tire reaches its limit, it will squirm and warn you…if that limit is reached in a linear manner.
It’s the grabbing of 30 points that hurts anyone leaned over more than 70 points. If you ride slowly with no lean angle, you will begin to believe that aggressiveness and grabbing the front brake lever is okay…and it is…until you carry more lean angle (or it’s raining, or you’re on a dirt road or your tire’s cold…pick your excuse). Do you have a new rider in your life? Get them thinking of never, ever, never grabbing the brakes. Throttle too…

3)If you STAB the front brake at lean angle, one of two things will happen. If the grip is good, the fork will collapse and the bike will stand up and run wide. If the grip is not-so-good, the front tire will lock and slide. The italicized advice at the beginning was written by a rider who aggressively goes after the front brake lever. His bike always stands up or lowsides. He’s inputting brake force too aggressively, too quickly...he isn't smoothly loading the fork springs or loading the tire. He may not believe this, but the tire will handle the load he wants, but the load must be fed-in more smoothly…and his experience leads to written advice that will hurt/kill other riders. “Never touch the brakes at lean angle?” Wrong. “Never grab the brakes at lean angle?” Right!

But what about the racers on TV who lose the front in the braking zone? Pay attention to when they lose grip. If it’s immediately, it’s because they stabbed the brake at lean angle. If it’s late in the braking zone, it’s because they finally exceeded 100 points of grip deep in the braking zone…if you’re adding lean angle, you’ve got to be “trailing off” the brakes as the tire nears its limit.

4) Radius equals MPH. Realize that speed affects the bike’s radius at a given lean angle. If the corner is tighter than expected, continue to bring your speed down. What’s the best way to bring your speed down? Roll off the throttle and hope you slow down? Or roll off the throttle and squeeze on a little brake? Please don’t answer off the top of your head…answer after you’ve experimented in the real world.

Do this: Ride in a circle in a parking lot at a given lean angle. That’s your radius. Run a circle or two and then slowly sneak on more throttle at the same lean angle and watch what your radius does. Now ride in the circle again, and roll off the throttle…at the same lean angle. You are learning Radius equals MPH. You are learning what throttle and off-throttle does to your radius through steering geometry changes and speed changes. You are learning something on your own, rather than asking for advice on subjects that affect your health and life. (You will also learn why I get so upset when new riders are told to push on the inside bar and pick up the throttle if they get in the corner too fast. Exactly the opposite of what the best riders do. But don’t believe me…try it.)

Let me rant for a moment: Almost every bit of riding advice works when the pace is low and the grip is high. It’s when the corner tightens or the sleet falls or the lap record is within reach…then everything counts.
“Get all your braking done before the turn,” is good riding advice. But what if you don’t? What if the corner goes the other way and is tighter and there’s gravel? It’s then that you don’t need advice, you need riding technique. Theory goes out the window and if you don’t perform the exact action, you will be lying in the dirt, or worse. Know that these techniques are not only understandable, but do-able by you. Yes you! I’m motivated to motivate you due to what I’ve seen working at Freddie’s school and now the Champ school…

I’m telling you this: If you can smoothly, gently pick-up your front brake lever and load the tire, you can brake at any lean angle on and FZ1. Why? Because our footpegs drag before our tires lose grip when things are warm and dry. It might be only 3 points, but missing the bus bumper by a foot is still missing the bumper! If it’s raining, you simply take these same actions and reduce them…you can still mix lean angle and brake pressure, but with considerably less of each. Rainy and cold? Lower still, but still combine-able.

5)So you’re into a right-hand corner and you must stop your bike for whatever reason. You close the throttle and sneak on the brakes lightly, balancing lean angle points against brake points. As you slow down, your radius continues to tighten. You don’t want to run off the inside of the corner, so you take away lean angle. What can you do with the brakes when you take away lean angle? Yes! Squeeze more. Stay with it and you will stop your bike mid-corner completely upright. No drama. But don’t just believe me…go prove it to yourself.

6)Let’s examine the final sentence in the italicized quote. The best thing to do before taking a corner is to grind the thought "I'm going to turn this corner" into your mind.
No, that’s not the best thing. It’s not the worst thing and I’m all for positive thinking, but we all need to see the difference between riding advice and riding techniques. This advice works until you enter a corner truly beyond your mental, physical or mechanical limits. I would change this to: The best thing to do before taking a corner is to scan with your eyes, use your brakes until you’re happy with your speed and direction, sneak open your throttle to maintain your chosen speed and radius, don’t accelerate until you can see your exit and can take away lean angle.

7)Do you think I’m being over-dramatic by claiming this will save our sport? Are we crashing because we’re going too slowly in the corners or too fast? Yes, too fast. What component reduces speed? Brakes. What component calms your brain? Brakes. What component, when massaged skillfully, helps the bike turn? Brakes. If riders are being told that they can’t use the brakes at lean angle, you begin to see the reason for my drama level. When I have a new rider in my life, my third priority is to have them, “Turn into the corner with the brake-light on.”

I’ve said it before: This is the only bike forum I’m a member of. I like it, I like the peeps, I like the info, I love the bike. Could we begin to change the information we pass along regarding brakes and lean angle? Could we control our sport by actually controlling our motorcycles? If we don’t control our sport, someone else will try. Closed throttle, no brakes is “out of the controls”. Get out there and master the brakes.
Thanks, I feel better.

Nick Ienatsch
Yamaha Champions Riding School
Fastersafer.com
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:30 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theWolfTamer View Post
During the beginner course there's a lot of information to absorb. Most of it you don't. Serious riders keep learning and practicing.

From another forum:
Great quote, I agree there is a lot to learn, and it would be better served for the course to remove that from the class.

I have never taken ERC, what do they teach in that course?
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:50 PM   #6
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How about sticking to the mantra: "Slow In - Fast Out".

This accomplishes several things:
It allows for braking in a straight line before the curve. (Set a safe fun speed before committing to the curve)
It allows for throttle in the curve. (Stabilizes the bike)
It allows for increased reaction time to things unseen in the curve. (In situations where sight lines may be compromised)

Trail braking is great and all but I prefer to leave it for the track where I know the condition of the corner and oncoming traffic doesn't exist.

It works well for me. Plus I try to set a straight line speed that allows me to accelerate thru the curve. Once the curve or set of curves are complete I will roll off the throttle to the straight line speed of choice again. I've learned through mishap and mayhem that the road does not serve well as a race track.

I've also learned that if there is a suggested speed sign for a corner (at least in BC and it worked for me in California) doubling that speed generally left tons of lean angle to make the corner safely (all other hazards not present) and therefore tons of grip to use the brakes if needed.

norther screwed with this post 12-11-2012 at 11:03 PM
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:54 PM   #7
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:04 PM   #8
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You can only brake in a turn if you're going faster than 205 mph.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:01 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theWolfTamer View Post
During the beginner course there's a lot of information to absorb. Most of it you don't. Serious riders keep learning and practicing.

From another forum:
Actually it is also posted here, as I posted it

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=805304
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:54 PM   #10
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Of course if you get on a Beemer with any of the forms of telelever suspension on the front end then there is much less dive during braking, which in turn gives a different feel when braking leant over. Which could mean if you regularly ride that type of system, take more care when you next get on a bike with standard front suspension.
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Old 12-14-2012, 03:30 PM   #11
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Of course if you get on a Beemer with any of the forms of telelever suspension on the front end then there is much less dive during braking, which in turn gives a different feel when braking leant over. Which could mean if you regularly ride that type of system, take more care when you next get on a bike with standard front suspension.
I can personally attest to the this! DAMHIK
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:12 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaMud View Post
I posted the rear brake in an emergency thread and was remembering back to my MSF days.
In MSF we did a exercise where, in the middle of a turn, you have to stand the bike up to brake.

Well that is almost never an option in real life. If you stand the bike up in a turn, you will either go slamming into the side wall of a canyon, or into oncoming traffic.

Why is the class teaching this?

Saying the tire can only do one thing at a time, turning or braking. That is completely false. Most of the time the tire is not even close to it's braking loose point. As long as you apply the brakes smoothly, even at the apex of a turn to brake for an oncoming car rock in the road.

I think by teaching this, they are teaching us bad habits.
There are tons of people doing this on youtube videos.

Your opinion?
Wrong. This is a VERY good skill to have. If you can't stop leaned over within a needed distance, the ONLY way to do so is stand the bike up, get hard on the binders and 1) stop if needed or 2) lean it back over and continue through the turn.

I've done this on the track when I made a ham fisted maneuver, WAAAAY over cooked a turn (think hitting neutral by mistake or some such thing). I am now going waaaaaay faster than I needed to be to negotiate the turn. Stand the bike up, brake very hard, lean it back down and continue. No problem.

Same applies on the street for numerous reasons. If you can't or won't do this, you shouldn't be riding on the street. I consider this basic motorcycle skills, to properly control the bike and be a safe rider, in control at all times.

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Old 12-12-2012, 10:31 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry View Post
Wrong. This is a VERY good skill to have. If you can't stop leaned over within a needed distance, the ONLY way to do so is stand the bike up, get hard on the binders and 1) stop if needed or 2) lean it back over and continue through the turn.

I've done this on the track when I made a ham fisted maneuver, WAAAAY over cooked a turn (think hitting neutral by mistake or some such thing). I am now going waaaaaay faster than I needed to be to negotiate the turn. Stand the bike up, brake very hard, lean it back down and continue. No problem.

Same applies on the street for numerous reasons. If you can't or won't do this, you shouldn't be riding on the street. I consider this basic motorcycle skills, to properly control the bike and be a safe rider, in control at all times.

Barry
I am not talking about the track, talking more like a 2 line road. You have the width of a car and no option to stand the bike up or else you go in the dirt or on coming traffic. If you were taught to stand the bike straight up to break..... then well, your screwed.

The track is much wider and has more run off. Plus you are closer to the limit on the track on traction due to the nature of it.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:33 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by ParaMud View Post
I am not talking about the track, talking more like a 2 line road. You have the width of a car and no option to stand the bike up or else you go in the dirt or on coming traffic. If you were taught to stand the bike straight up to break..... then well, your screwed.

The track is much wider and has more run off. Plus you are closer to the limit on the track on traction due to the nature of it.
That was an example picked at random. Sorry.... I stand by my assertion that WITHIN A NORMAL TRAFFIC LANE, the average rider needs to be able to stand any bike up for maximum braking to 1) STOP or 2) continue safely through the turn.

PERIOD. End of story.

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Old 12-12-2012, 10:47 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Barry View Post
That was an example picked at random. Sorry.... I stand by my assertion that WITHIN A NORMAL TRAFFIC LANE, the average rider needs to be able to stand any bike up for maximum braking to 1) STOP or 2) continue safely through the turn.

PERIOD. End of story.

Barry

You think the average rider is at the limit of their traction during the turn and can't brake and turn?

Standing up shouldnt even be considered the option since that almost guarantees a crash.

Braking won't automatically throw you on the ground.
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