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Old 01-06-2013, 10:00 PM   #1
Steve G. OP
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"Idle no More" concerns

At the risk of this thread getting buried in the usual gun/us politics threads in the 'basement', I'll start this particular thread In 'Canada' as it's unique to Canada. Moderators, feel free to move it to the basement if you so choose.


I've got particular concerns about this movement. Not just the first nations regular citizens deplorable plight, and the band leaders' grand luxurious living on taxpayers bottomless spending. But I've got concerns that this movement is something that the 'occupy' movement can now hang it's hat on, with all of their various bitches/rants/demands. I am worried about this one.

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews...03-200333.html
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Old 01-07-2013, 08:45 AM   #2
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I don't have all the answers, but I do think that the first nations have done more harm to themselves in recent years than anything done to them. You're right about the band leaders getting rich while the average resident goes without.
What happened to them when the europeans first came here was deplorable, but I didn't do it and neither did my ancestors. They came from Norway 3 generations ago and weren't involved in any genocide. I'm not responsible!
Like I said, I don't have any deep answers. If it were me, I'd assimilate a little more. They can't get back at everyone else by hurting themselves.
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:03 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve G. View Post
At the risk of this thread getting buried in the usual gun/us politics threads in the 'basement', I'll start this particular thread In 'Canada' as it's unique to Canada. Moderators, feel free to move it to the basement if you so choose.


I've got particular concerns about this movement. Not just the first nations regular citizens deplorable plight, and the band leaders' grand luxurious living on taxpayers bottomless spending. But I've got concerns that this movement is something that the 'occupy' movement can now hang it's hat on, with all of their various bitches/rants/demands. I am worried about this one.

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews...03-200333.html
You rely on SUN news for your information - really! Should administrators of Bands expect to earn any less than their counterparts off-reserve? The annual family revenue of Ms. Spence is nobodies business except their own. And charging an $850 per day consulting fee doesn't mean you get to charge that every day - believe me, I know!.

i have been to Attawapiskat many times. There is NO fancy living going on there. There is not a single dwelling that would look at home in a typical BC suburb (or anywhere else in suburban Canada).

Much of the money that flows through reserves such as Attawapiskat goes in air fares ($1100+ round trip), food costs (typically 3-5 times what it is in the south) and the difficulties of maintaining even the most basic services in a remote location.

Whining about First Nations communities and individuals getting rich from government handouts just betrays woeful ignorance of the real conditions. .

Nick
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:42 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by nick949eldo View Post
Should administrators of Bands expect to earn any less than their counterparts off-reserve?
warning rant ahead:

I think we have a big problem off reserve too, in that we have way too many overpaid, unaccountable, underworked bureaucats* in this country telling us what do to. They are our employees. Their pay should just as intangible as what they produce. What do they do?

*misspelling of bureaucrats intentional. Bureaucat = fat cat that does nothing but eat and purr contentedly.

Rant off.

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Old 01-07-2013, 07:11 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by nick949eldo View Post
Should administrators of Bands expect to earn any less than their counterparts off-reserve?
Im not really interested in wading into this, but as a comparison, councilors in as close to similar sized towns, villages etc. (nothing quite that small here that hasnt been amalgamated) get maybe a few hundred to $1000 tops travel allowance or the like and no salary...not sure how it compares.
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Old 01-07-2013, 08:51 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by nick949eldo View Post
You rely on SUN news for your information - really! Should administrators of Bands expect to earn any less than their counterparts off-reserve? The annual family revenue of Ms. Spence is nobodies business except their own. And charging an $850 per day consulting fee doesn't mean you get to charge that every day - believe me, I know!.

i have been to Attawapiskat many times. There is NO fancy living going on there. There is not a single dwelling that would look at home in a typical BC suburb (or anywhere else in suburban Canada).

Much of the money that flows through reserves such as Attawapiskat goes in air fares ($1100+ round trip), food costs (typically 3-5 times what it is in the south) and the difficulties of maintaining even the most basic services in a remote location.

Whining about First Nations communities and individuals getting rich from government handouts just betrays woeful ignorance of the real conditions. .

Nick

Facts are facts man.

Look, I don't think anyone is showing willfull ignorance of conditions. I was born in the Alert Bay 'big house',,,,I regularly work on reservations to this day repairing homes paid for by taxpayers, which were willfully damaged 'just because they felt like it'. I see bedrooms converted to latrines with 2 feet on human crap, yet there's a latrine down the hall. Oh yeah, I see!!!!

But this is about transperancy of funding. You say that funding they get is non of anyones' business. I find this thought absolutley bizzare! We demand financial transparency to our tax paying banks, ALL private companies listed on any stock exchange, our municipal, provincial, and federal governments. Yet, you say first nation funding is none of our business??? How dare you contribute, and justify this gong show of a situation to continue. Is it any wonder that every federal govt. in the last 40 yrs has NOT opened the books to yearly first nations spending [estimated at 10,000,000,000$ a year,,but we'll never really know] . Are you sure you just mis-printed your response?? Please tell me you were just kidding,,,
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Old 01-11-2013, 06:05 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick949eldo View Post
i have been to Attawapiskat many times. There is NO fancy living going on there. There is not a single dwelling that would look at home in a typical BC suburb (or anywhere else in suburban Canada).

Much of the money that flows through reserves such as Attawapiskat goes in air fares ($1100+ round trip), food costs (typically 3-5 times what it is in the south) and the difficulties of maintaining even the most basic services in a remote location.

Whining about First Nations communities and individuals getting rich from government handouts just betrays woeful ignorance of the real conditions. .

Nick
So why in the HELL would you want to live up there to begin with? I've seen my fair share of reserves around BC and elsewhere and I wouldn't ever want to live in such conditions. Heck..even the ones that are close to major centers all seem to be shit holes.....

Before anyone goes off about me being racist or any crap like that....I'm part native so don't even go there....
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Old 01-19-2013, 05:19 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick949eldo View Post
You rely on SUN news for your information - really! Should administrators of Bands expect to earn any less than their counterparts off-reserve? The annual family revenue of Ms. Spence is nobodies business except their own. And charging an $850 per day consulting fee doesn't mean you get to charge that every day - believe me, I know!.

i have been to Attawapiskat many times. There is NO fancy living going on there. There is not a single dwelling that would look at home in a typical BC suburb (or anywhere else in suburban Canada).

Much of the money that flows through reserves such as Attawapiskat goes in air fares ($1100+ round trip), food costs (typically 3-5 times what it is in the south) and the difficulties of maintaining even the most basic services in a remote location.

Whining about First Nations communities and individuals getting rich from government handouts just betrays woeful ignorance of the real conditions. .

Nick
Less than counterparts off reserves? Spence is a "chief" of a reserve of under 2000 people. She purportedly makes, $70K/year tax free (roughly equivalent to $90K off the reserve for someone who pays tax).

My hometown of just just over 3000 has a mayor who gets a stipend - but no salary as it's a part time position.

The mayor of Fredericton, NB makes $36,957 plus allowances (another $15,833) - not close to what Spence is scamming from all Canadians. Note Fredericton is a provincial capital with a population of over 55,000 people!

Spence's salary should absolutely be a matter of public record because it's our tax dollars!

Quote:
...Much of the money that flows through reserves such as Attawapiskat goes in air fares ($1100+ round trip)...
Why should that be federal tax dollars? Us working stiff taxpayers don't get magic gov't money to leave & return to our hometowns whenever we feel like it.


Quote:
...food costs (typically 3-5 times what it is in the south)...
Agreed. But aren't all Aboriginals out there hunting and living off the land? Shouldn't what they need to get at the local Northern Store be fairly minimal?

I'm not "ignorant" of conditions on reserves. I've been to too many and seen far too much abuse. The Criminal Code doesn't apply to them. I've seen cases of clear criminal negligence resulting in the deaths of children and because they're oppressed natives, grief counselors fly into the remote reserve but there was no discussion of the parents actually being arrested and charged.

I am disgusted with the whole situation and something needs to change - Canadians need to wake up and start holding Aboriginals accountable!

/rant off.

Sources:

Taxpayer.com

CBC
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:58 AM   #9
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You should move to the U.S., Then you'll appreciate your government.
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Old 01-07-2013, 06:28 PM   #10
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Sun News

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews...07-102144.html

Not sure if Sun News skews the numbers or not, or puts an anti-aboriginal slant on things, but the numbers are damning regardless:

- 20+ councillors and 3 chiefs on the payroll for a community of approx 2500 (Edit - 1500?) people!?
- Fed gov't gives them over $17 million/year, and millions unnaccounted for;
- they are living in squalour, yet invest millions in the stock market!?

It's clear that money is getting siphoned off... and not just a little. The release of details today of the audit carried out on this band is outright damning - I hope the RCMP launch a criminal investigation.

I agree things need to change on Reserves, and the Indian Act needs changing.. but band administrations must be held accountable and have full transparency - this what's expected of other Canadians.

Edit: I should add, what I find particularly galling about the Attawapiskat band is that they declared an emergency, basically holding out their hands for more money... and then refused federal oversight!
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GreatWhiteNorth screwed with this post 01-07-2013 at 08:07 PM
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:53 PM   #11
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I think the money issue is not really part of what Idle No More is about.
More like the right trying to discredit the cause. Idle No More is not directly linked to Chief Spence.
The point I totally side with is the BS that has been included in the "budget".
Our waters need protection and our resources need managing. This isn't just a First Nations issue.
The Red Deer River saw an oil pipeline rupture this past summer.Current regulations required an "extensive" clean up.
If the Federal gov't guts its protection
legislation, my city and towns hundreds of km East of me will not have drinking water. What then?
Sure, the economy runs on oil, but water is life (at the risk of being granola) and Stevie and his buddies
don't seem to care.

Maybe if Steve's Muskoka cottage had an oil spill in front of it he'd change his tune.
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Old 01-07-2013, 08:24 PM   #12
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It will be very interesting to see where this movement goes. From what I understand, it is very much a grass roots movement and not one condoned by the AFN. It does have the potential to be quite disruptive for many Canadians, and if it does, they will loose a large portion of the public's support. A perfect example would be Bill115 here in Ontario. Most private sector workers could give a flying hoot that a terrible president was set in abolishing workers rights. Joe public is only concerned that they might be inconvenienced for a day.

If the radical factions within the Native community get up in "arm's" over this movement, we could see violence. I rather doubt that we have learned anything since Ipperwash, Caledonia, Oka or Gustafsen.

Fact is, the Harper Government has ramrodded through two Omnibus Bills and the most recent one affects Native Sovereignty in a big way. While I think the PM is truly sensitive to native issues, he is much too pragmatic to allow any concerned group stonewall what he sees as economic progress vital to our country. Sometimes the pendulum of politics swings too far to one side and this might be the lighting rod.

Another thought, we live in VERY different times these days. While I do not worry about black opps over my roof, fact is that today's feds are very active in quelling dissident groups before they get traction. Case in point:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2410783.html

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Old 01-11-2013, 01:50 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by GP640 View Post
I think the money issue is not really part of what Idle No More is about.
More like the right trying to discredit the cause. Idle No More is not directly linked to Chief Spence.
The point I totally side with is the BS that has been included in the "budget".
Our waters need protection and our resources need managing. This isn't just a First Nations issue.
The Red Deer River saw an oil pipeline rupture this past summer.Current regulations required an "extensive" clean up.
If the Federal gov't guts its protection legislation, my city and towns hundreds of km East of me will not have drinking water. What then?
Sure, the economy runs on oil, but water is life (at the risk of being granola) and Stevie and his buddies don't seem to care.
The above is what we've heard Idle No More is mainly about with some aboriginal rights, sovereignty, and solidarity thrown in.

I'll be at the rally in downtown Anchorage tomorrow at high noon. My ancestors on my dad's side are 1st Nations Tsimshean out of BC.

Wish me luck. Mark H.
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Old 01-11-2013, 06:48 PM   #14
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Some interesting reading - no real answers, but fairly illuminating

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/a-dream-palace-built-on-gas-and-gold-wont-solve-aboriginal-poverty/article7158684/
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:15 PM   #15
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Excellant editorial. Well done. Agree with all of it.
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