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Old 10-06-2013, 05:54 PM   #1
cellige OP
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downshift/braking methods

Someone said it would be a good idea to post in this subforum, so here we go ! Question about downshifting !

Seems to be that the technique used out on the track (mainly without a slipper clutch) is to downshift while braking, releasing the clutch for each gear, finishing your braking/downshifting before you lean the bike, lean the bike and then immediately after done leaning, roll on the throttle.

I would like to know why there is an advantage doing that method instead of: braking, downshifting through each gear with the clutch held in, leaning the bike and immediately after leaning getting the clutch in the friction zone/rolling on the throttle/getting clutch all the way out.

So whats the deal?
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Old 10-06-2013, 06:35 PM   #2
kyns
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It is WAY smoother to ride with the track style, releasing the clutch every gear. I allways ride like that, at the track or traffic or off road. Riding like that you are allways on the right gear and right rpm for the curve/situation. And you are then using the engine as rear brake. It is WAY smoother. And smooth is fast.

At the track you actually trail the brakes (front brake) all the way to the apex and down shift at the same time. Blipping the throttle while downshifts for smooth shifts. If you use the track method, you need to blip while down shifts, or you get a lot of CLUNCKS and eventually break your tranny.

With the track method you allways have the engine connected to the ground, either engine braking or accelerating. RPM and gear matched to the situation.

kyns screwed with this post 10-06-2013 at 07:06 PM
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Old 10-18-2013, 07:23 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by kyns View Post
At the track you actually trail the brakes (front brake) all the way to the apex and down shift at the same time.
This another reason I would like to take a track class some day. Dragging a front brake while in a turn or leaned over goes against everything I have been taught and taught. I understand the theory which is fascinating.
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Old 10-21-2013, 02:43 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Motor7 View Post
This another reason I would like to take a track class some day. Dragging a front brake while in a turn or leaned over goes against everything I have been taught and taught. I understand the theory which is fascinating.

You get style points for doing it clucthless THAT is a real bitch to get right. I almost always clutch unless I'm having a really good day.

...and trailing on the track varies by corner, some corners you do all of the braking straight up and down then tip it and back on the throttle, some you trail pretty deep, some S-turns you you "chop" instead of going wide in wide out you hug the inside after the first corner, and if you do it right you aren't really completely off the brakes until the second apex.

Then you have that rat-bastard lightbulb at NJMP, we like to call it never ending right and never ending left, the right is triple apex 3rd and forth gear into a heavy decreasing radius.....just to swap to never ending left which is 210* 2nd gear and decreasing radius. That third apex you are coming in 4th gear hanging off the bike as far as possible to brake and get downshifted for the decreasing radius, and there isn't room to stand it up if you are going faster than parade lap pace.

Fuck up never ending left you just lost like 3 seconds because its WTF all the way to turn one there.....and its wide enough that there are about 12 different line you can get through the left on.
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Old 10-21-2013, 11:25 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Motor7 View Post
This another reason I would like to take a track class some day. Dragging a front brake while in a turn or leaned over goes against everything I have been taught and taught. I understand the theory which is fascinating.

I think everyone should spend some time at a race track learning how to corner. I just about live at race track for 6+ months of the year and I've done a few different schools. I'm not the fastest, but I'm not slow and anyone who I race with will tell you I'm super smooth.


So my take on braking/downshifting:

Blipping isn't the only method for down shifting and matching revs. The method I pick up from Pridmore's Star school really works best for me. (you can find videos of it on his site) In short, you down shift before you roll off. Sounds odd, I know, but it works. It took me the better part of a two day school to get it, but once I did I wasn't bouncing the back tire on my R6 anymore.

All of my down shifts are complete within the first 10% of braking. But I don't fully release the clutch until I'm ready to tip in. At that point I'm trailing the brakes until I'm comfortable with my speed and that I know I'll hit my apex.

Once at the apex, it's easy to start to pick up the gas as you take away lean angle. Once you can see your exit point and the bike is about upright... it's WFO.
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Old 10-21-2013, 02:13 PM   #6
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I think you never want to freewheel corners in any vehicle. You want the motor connected to the driving wheels as much as possible. Sure, if I am coming to a stop I will simply pull in the clutch and downshift all the way while using the brakes to stop. But never on a track; and almost never if I am not coming to a stop.

Matching gears: Downshifting is a big part of my fun when riding in a spirited fashion. I like to use mostly the front brake when on the tar. I like heavyish front wheel braking with a constant pressure on the lever, while blipping the throttle with the same hand. While I am not a road racer, both of my sons are and I learned that little technique from them. And BTW, they had slippers and speedshifters to help. But the downshifting is a bit of an art that is special for me.

I am pretty abrupt with the clutch, though. I have a bad habit of popping it out. Like bang! A bad habit.
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Old 10-21-2013, 03:52 PM   #7
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You don't have to concentrate on proper gas/clutch control when you are already in the right gear with the clutch fully released.
That way you can focus on other things like apex, exit speed, obstacles and road surface.
The brain can only think of one thing at a time. Where there is more than one thing happening, we can give each item slices of attention. The more we have to think about any one thing, the less time we have to think about other things.

My mechanic said to do clutchless downshifts only in the winter when he needs the money--he's plenty busy in summer.

It can be learned to squeeze the brake lever and roll-on a blip of throttle at the same time for smooth downshifts while braking.
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Old 10-06-2013, 06:38 PM   #8
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BLIP
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Old 10-06-2013, 06:39 PM   #9
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Clutch?? I only use that when I'm stopped.
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Old 10-06-2013, 07:42 PM   #10
henshao
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I prefer to be in the right gear before I ever reach the corner, but I will skip every gear on the way down to it.
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Old 10-06-2013, 10:07 PM   #11
atomicalex
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Be warned, once you start trail braking, you will never give it up. It is one of the most useful advanced techniques there is. You can bail out of some deeeeeeeeep sheet on tractive surfaces if you are confident and can apply it properly. YMMV on loose surfaces!
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Old 10-06-2013, 11:11 PM   #12
ADZ
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Cause you don't want to freewheel through any corner.
You want throttle cracked on as soon as u finish braking to balance the bike and hold a consistent line.
Who tought u option 2??? It's dangerous.
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Old 10-07-2013, 12:57 AM   #13
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Option 2 runs the risk of the bike locking up as you bang down through the gears and then let the clutch out, also when the engine has been spun up by the lower gears its very likely to be in the meat of the torque curve and as you roll the throttle on you could spin the rear which usually means bad juju.
Better to go into the corner under control and in the correct gear and on partial throttle.
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Old 10-07-2013, 06:26 AM   #14
cellige OP
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To clarify the only differences I was describing between option 1 and 2 were:
letting the clutch out for each gear in option 1, and not in option 2.
cracking the throttle on just after lean completion in option 1, versus letting clutch out just after lean completion in option 2. Both being at the same spot on the track.
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Old 10-07-2013, 12:49 PM   #15
kyns
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cellige View Post
To clarify the only differences I was describing between option 1 and 2 were:
letting the clutch out for each gear in option 1, and not in option 2.
cracking the throttle on just after lean completion in option 1, versus letting clutch out just after lean completion in option 2. Both being at the same spot on the track.
To be smooth, you need to go down to the correct gear and letting the clutch out BEFORE the apex. Then "cruise" trough the curve on steady gas and smoothly ad throttle once trough the apex.

Do not go trough the corner with your clutch pulled in, and letting it out only after apex.
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