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Old 12-20-2013, 03:12 PM   #1
TheBlurr OP
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New tire need scuffing myth

I see it is still being perpetuated, and it simply is not true


First off, Knoche quickly dispatched the old wives' tale that the surface of the tire needs to be scuffed or roughed up to offer grip. "Maybe it's coming from the old days when people were spraying mold release on the tread when the molds were maybe not that precise," Knoche speculates, "and the machinery was not that precise. But nowadays molds are typically coated with Teflon or other surface treatments. The release you put in there (in the sidewall area only, not the tread) is for like baking a cake, you know, so that it fills all the little corners and today that is done more mechanically than by spraying. The sidewall is important because you have all the engraving in the sidewall [with tire size, inflation pressure and certifications] and that you want to look nicely on your tire, so that's why we still spray the mold release there."
The next myth we see perpetuated nearly every time we watch the warm-up lap to a race. Riders begin weaving back and forth in apparent attempt to scuff the tread surface (which we've already discounted) and generate heat. The reality is that, according to every tire engineer that I've asked, there are far more effective ways of generating heat in a tire that are also much safer. Rather than weaving back and forth-which does little in the way of generating heat but does put you at risk asking for cornering grip from tires before they're up to temperature-you're far better off using strong acceleration and braking forces, and using them while upright, not leaned over! Acceleration and braking forces impart far more flex to the tire carcass, which is what generates the heat that then transfers to the tread compound as well (you often see Formula 1 cars weaving violently back and forth because automobile tires operate on a horizontal plane, so they have and use significant sidewall flex to generate heat).
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Old 12-20-2013, 03:22 PM   #2
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The mold release on the surface of them can make things interesting for the first few miles.
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Old 12-20-2013, 03:28 PM   #3
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not a face plant. Should be moved to here. Ask the mods nicely....and say thank you.
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Old 12-20-2013, 04:59 PM   #4
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I'm afraid I trust my friend/tyre supplying/mechanic more than I trust you, so, I'll just play it safe for a couple miles if you don't mind.
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Old 12-20-2013, 05:05 PM   #5
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I'm afraid I trust my friend/tyre supplying/mechanic more than I trust you, so, I'll just play it safe for a couple miles if you don't mind.
You trust your friend more than Lance Holst former professional AMA racer, Nicky Hayden/Jason Pridmore manager who also helped set up Kevin Swantz Riding school?

As well as the Service Rep for Pirrelli?

You really want a treat go to a race track sometime, you get to see lots of brand new shiny tires, some with a sticker on.

FYI I hvae a very close friend whom I consider an Amazing Mechanic who perpetuated this myth just like your friend.
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Old 12-20-2013, 05:06 PM   #6
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Yes

http://youtu.be/Q9zNUPDmnz4
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Old 12-20-2013, 05:18 PM   #7
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However, to be fair, I might push it a bit if I had the skill of a professional racer, a works bike, racing compounds and USA weather. Tyre warmers and a nice race track would also boost my confidence a bit.
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Old 12-20-2013, 05:37 PM   #8
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To..The Blurr......
you ride an old klr650....what the fuck do you know about how new sportbike tires feel after they are just mounted and balanced?
NOTHING !

the first few miles always feel like riding on marbles or ice,,especially if you ride on hilly/curving roads....not so much in pool table flat Florida.....

I will continue to listen to my 60 yrs of riding experience [ have my own tire changing machine}...and not some douch bag trying to impress others with shit he read on the internet.

of course at the acceleration and speed that a KLR 650 generates ,,,,, you will have no problem with them dirt tires

Merry Christmas
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Old 12-20-2013, 05:38 PM   #9
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I have a set of Metzeler Z8 Interacts (mfgd in 2012). When new they had a very noticeable heavy waxy/greasy film on the tread area. I don;t know if it's mold release agent, or what, but it was slippery on the road. I could not cut through it with Simple Green or Fast Orange. It just smeared. This makes me think it was a wax vs a grease. It clogged up sandpaper. The only way I found to remove it was to wear it off on the road, just being very careful as I leaned further over the first few times.



This was not just scuffing of the tire's rubber surface. It was actually removing a heavy wax film that came on the tire from the factory.
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Old 12-20-2013, 06:15 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by TheBlurr View Post
You trust your friend more than Lance Holst former professional AMA racer, Nicky Hayden/Jason Pridmore manager who also helped set up Kevin Swantz Riding school?

As well as the Service Rep for Pirrelli?

You really want a treat go to a race track sometime, you get to see lots of brand new shiny tires, some with a sticker on.

FYI I hvae a very close friend whom I consider an Amazing Mechanic who perpetuated this myth just like your friend.
New race tires have already been heat cycled and prepped for use. Street tires receive none of this prep work.
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Old 12-20-2013, 06:32 PM   #11
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Any time a solid is heated to liquid then allowed to cool and return to solid form there is a resulting crust or skin that forms on the surface. .
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Old 12-21-2013, 11:06 AM   #12
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Any time a solid is heated to liquid then allowed to cool and return to solid form there is a resulting crust or skin that forms on the surface. .
What are you talking about? Rubber is not "a solid heated to a liquid then allowed to cool and return to solid". It's a solid from start to finish.


(speaking only of the factory I work in)

My two cents on this, as a tire factory employee. The factory I work at, which makes car tires, does not use any kind of coating in the tire mold. We have tried it, and it failed. We do spray on a silicon based release agent onto each tire, inside and out, tread and sidewall. Someone mentioned filling in nooks and crannies, that's bullshit. In my plant, if the rubber doesn't get into every little space it's supposed to, if the tread blocks aren't sharp, if there is too much mold flash, that mold is shut down until it can be resolved. (I have done maintenance in every area of the factory)

I have never thought to scrub in car tires, but every time I install tires on my bike I take it easy for the first 100-150 miles before I get aggressive.
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Old 12-21-2013, 04:24 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis Wambsganss View Post
I have a set of Metzeler Z8 Interacts (mfgd in 2012). When new they had a very noticeable heavy waxy/greasy film on the tread area. I don;t know if it's mold release agent, or what, but it was slippery on the road. I could not cut through it with Simple Green or Fast Orange. It just smeared. This makes me think it was a wax vs a grease. It clogged up sandpaper. The only way I found to remove it was to wear it off on the road, just being very careful as I leaned further over the first few times.

That's how all my tyres look like. However, I'm not pushing it hard enough on public roads to recognize any difference between the completely scuffed area and the first time of touching the untouched area when at last a peg touches the ground.

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The next myth we see perpetuated nearly every time we watch the warm-up lap to a race. Riders begin weaving back and forth in apparent attempt to scuff the tread surface (which we've already discounted) and generate heat. The reality is that, according to every tire engineer that I've asked, there are far more effective ways of generating heat in a tire that are also much safer. Rather than weaving back and forth-which does little in the way of generating heat but does put you at risk asking for cornering grip from tires before they're up to temperature-you're far better off using strong acceleration and braking forces, and using them while upright, not leaned over! Acceleration and braking forces impart far more flex to the tire carcass, which is what generates the heat that then transfers to the tread compound as well (you often see Formula 1 cars weaving violently back and forth because automobile tires operate on a horizontal plane, so they have and use significant sidewall flex to generate heat).
What I don't get: When it's a myth, why do the professional riders do it all the time?
Also from my personal experience, especially on cold days, the tyre gets warm in the centre from as you said acceleration and braking, but since rubber isn't an exceptional well heat conductor, that heat is NOT transfered to the sides of the tread. Even after miles and miles of riding, including upright ABS braking.

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Tires also get harder with every heat cycle, those tires which are five years old do not have near the traction of a nice shiny new tire ya'll are afraid of. Yet you would not hesitate to jump on said tire simply because "they are not new"
Why the fuck should I use such old, not to say rotten, tyres? I'm always buying the newest tyre model, manufactured a few weeks or at worst months ago. My tyres in general don't happen to become older than a year until they're changed. Buy outdated stuff only to save maybe twenty bucks a piece? Seriously?
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Old 12-21-2013, 05:04 AM   #14
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Think about it for a minute, fellas. Think of the liability aspect. Do you actually think tire manufactureers are sending motorcycle tires out of the plant covered in a slippery substance? Really?

Why do people crash on new tires? They're cold. They're overinflated from the shop (maybe). They are covered in tire lube from a sloppy tirechanging job at the shop (maybe). They have a different profile from the tire the rider is used to. Etc. Slippery from the factory? Not so much.
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Old 12-21-2013, 09:36 PM   #15
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Are new tires as slick on a treadmill as they are on pavement?

Inquiring minds want to know.
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