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Old 12-05-2010, 12:57 PM   #106
fishkens
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Thanks for the detailed posts. I learn something every time I visit your thread.
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Old 12-05-2010, 01:52 PM   #107
Zebedee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishkens View Post
Thanks for the detailed posts. I learn something every time I visit your thread.
I'll second that ...

Keep up the good work.



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Old 12-16-2010, 09:54 AM   #108
brunocrossley
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Shock mounts

X3300, please tell me. Are the upper and lower shock mounts exactly perpendicular to the swinging arm pivot axis, or do you allow for any misalignment with the rose joints?
I'm trying to do something similar with a 'twin shock-to -mono' arrangement and find that the available target area on the main frame loop is inboard of that on the swinging arm. The shock wants to point in towards the spine of the main frame, and is trying to twist the conventional rubber shock-mounting eyes. I suppose that rod-ends would allow for that?

I know it would be easier to find a mono frame, but where's the fun in that?

Mark
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Old 12-18-2010, 12:40 AM   #109
x3300 OP
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Location: San Jose, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brunocrossley View Post
The shock wants to point in towards the spine of the main frame, and is trying to twist the conventional rubber shock-mounting eyes.
brunocrossley, It sounds to me like you need to remove the old mounts and make some new ones where they will be aligned.

I setup up the shock mounts so that the center of the shock end bearings were in the same plane, and that that plane was perpendicular to the swing arm pivot when the swingarm was centered in the swingarm bearing adjustments. With the lower clevis mount I can make adjustments with a thicker bearing spacer on one side if the swingarm needed to be moved over for drive shaft clearance or whatever, but I don't think that will be needed.

This photo shows the mounts from the rear.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/32-shock-mounts/finished-rear.jpg

-x3300
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Old 12-18-2010, 01:23 AM   #110
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Joined: Mar 2005
Location: San Jose, CA
Oddometer: 170
Subframe

With the extended swingarm and KTM shock there's no way the OE subframe will fit, and the subframe is something I thought I could replace with a lighter and simpler design.

There were a lot of things I needed to consider for the subframe design. It needs to support the seat, rear fender, tail light, license plate, luggage racks, muffler, etc., in such a way that they all fit and work together, plus it also needs to clear the tire when the suspension bottoms out and somehow needs to connect to the main frame and be strong enough to hold the rider and luggage. With just blank nothingness at the back of the bike the task seemed a little daunting at first. Here's what I was faced with:

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/35-subframe/nothingness.jpg

To get an idea of what would work I made this mock-up with some aluminum flats I happened to have. I wanted to have as much as possible just straight tube so it would be easy to build and so it would have good load bearing for the weight.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/35-subframe/mock-up.jpg

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/35-subframe/full-mock-up.jpg

Once I had an idea of what would work I made up this subframe drawing to work with. The GS subframe is made of 18mm thick wall tube. My idea was to make a lighter weight unit of 3/4" (19mm) thin wall 1018 steel that may not be as strong, but had a simple design that could be easily replaced when damaged or updated with a chromoly or aluminum version without much effort. The design has only two bent tubes, the right front support needed to bend out to clear the shock reservoir, and the rear connecting tube needed to loop up and around the fender.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/35-subframe/subframe-drawing.jpg

To prepare the tube ends for welding I used a 3/4" end mill on a vertical milling machine to plunge into the tubes at the proper angels. I didn't have a 3/4" hole saw but the end mill worked OK. The other cuts I could do in a standard milling vice but for the shallow cut on the lower front supports I needed to use this angle plate setup. It wasn't a very solid setup so I used a 4 fluted mill and went in real slow. I've since bought a 3/4" ball end mill that will allow me to do shallow angle cuts in a vise.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/35-subframe/mill-setup.jpg

I have access to a Hossfeld tube bender. It only has press bending dies, but I thought that it would be enough to do the front support tube. I'll make up a set of 1/2" rotary draw dies to do the rear connecting loop and a top luggage rack. This photo is just a setup I did later to show the bender. When I did the bend I filled the tube with sand and sealed the ends with PVC electrical tape. The sand supports the tube from the inside and gives a smother bend.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/35-subframe/bender.jpg

With the tube ends done and the front support bent I did a trial fitting to check the tire clearance and figure out what kind of mounts were needed on the frame.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/35-subframe/fitting-tire.jpg

Here are the frame mounts I added. To get a shape and location that would work with my subframe I started with some templates from thick paper card stock then when I was satisfied with them I made up a set from 1/8" steel plate.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/35-subframe/mounts.jpg

To add some strength at the mount points I put on a set of lugs made from 7/8" thin wall tube slid over the 3/4". The welded subframe would be too big to fit into the sandblaster I have access to, so I sand blasted the individual tubes in preparation for painting.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/35-subframe/parts.jpg

Here's a detail of a lug. I slid the outer tube over the main tube then crimped the end in an arbor press. I used a large open end wrench to form a rounded crimp edge which I thought would give a stiffer side-to-side crimp. I couldn't get enough force out of the press to completely flatten the tube and lug so I finished the crimp with a hammer and anvil. To finish the lugs I ground the crimped area to have a nice profile and have some clearance for the upper mounts, then welded a bead along the tube ends. In retrospect, I would have liked to put some relief on the ends of the lug to reduce the stress at that junction, similar to the way old lugged bicycle frames were done.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/35-subframe/welded-ends.jpg

With the tubes prepared I did another trial fitting to check the tire, fender, and shock clearance. When I setup the shock I put it as far inboard as possible so that there would be enough clearance to allow a straight lower subframe support as seen here.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/35-subframe/fitting.jpg

I used this carpenter's level to get the top tubes parallel to the main frame just before tack welding.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/35-subframe/weld-setup.jpg

Here are the sides welded up. This photo shows the simplicity of the design.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/35-subframe/sides.jpg

To add some strength to the joining of the support tubes I made up this set of gussets.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/35-subframe/gussets.jpg

I used this hole punch to punch the hole and cut out the reliefs.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/35-subframe/punch.jpg

And here's the subframe all welded up. I added a small plate on the middle cross tube to mount the fender.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/35-subframe/welded.jpg

And the subframe with a UFO enduro fender. I still haven't decided on a rear fender yet...

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/35-subframe/with-fender.jpg

Here's a detail of the fender mount.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/35-subframe/fender-mount.jpg

And a shot with my old seat pan, which unfortunately, will no longer work. I'll need to make a new one.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/35-subframe/with-seat.jpg

To finish the subframe I still need to make up the rear fender mount loop. I also plan to make a small detachable top luggage rack and two light weight detachable side luggage racks. All of these though depend on the rotary dies which need to be made.

-x3300
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Old 12-19-2010, 01:17 PM   #111
Zebedee
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Thanks for the detailed updates ...

Keep up the good work.



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Old 12-19-2010, 01:29 PM   #112
fishkens
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Love it.

I'm looking forward to how the luggage racks will be integrated. Do you think they'll bolt on or will they be welded for a permanent installation? Bolt on would be nice to allow removal and lighten the bike a up a bit when luggage isn't needed.
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Old 01-01-2011, 02:46 AM   #113
turnipbmw
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Love this kind of report !

if you need any more parts from the UK, I will be visiting my uncle in Cupertino in the spring so may be able to bring them for you
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Old 01-01-2011, 08:28 AM   #114
datchew
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Fantastic.

I eat this type of design and fab up! Yummy.


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Old 01-01-2011, 12:50 PM   #115
x3300 OP
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Location: San Jose, CA
Oddometer: 170
Time Off

I've been down riding in Baja for the last week, so haven't made any progress on the build-up.

Here's a video from along the coast south of San Felipe where they run the Baja 250 race:



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Old 01-09-2011, 03:26 PM   #116
x3300 OP
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Joined: Mar 2005
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Rear Hub

There are some differences between the monolever and GS paralever final drives. The brake drum and output flange diameters are the same, but the GS output flange is a lot shorter.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/36-rear-hub/compare-brake-side.jpg

Here's how it looks when I mounted the GS wheel on the monolever drive. It can't be seen, but the brake shoes are hanging out into the gap. I figured it'd be best to try to fill up the gap somehow.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/36-rear-hub/wheel-offset.jpg

I planned to rebuild the wheel so I pulled out the hub to work on it.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/36-rear-hub/hub-out.jpg

Here's how it mounts up. I measured the gap as 22.5mm.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/36-rear-hub/the-gap.jpg

The hub has a center section that extends out. To cut it down I mounted the hub on a lathe with a four-jaw chuck and used this indicator to get the hub centered.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/36-rear-hub/align-r.jpg

Then used this indicator and a mallet to set the axial alignment.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/36-rear-hub/align-a.jpg

After a few iterations of radial and axial alignment I could get the hub set. I cut off 21.5mm to leave a 1mm gap between the hub and final drive.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/36-rear-hub/turning-hub.jpg

After I got the center section cut down I checked for interference by pushing the drive into the hub and and turning it around.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/36-rear-hub/checking-fit.jpg

I found I needed to re-shape the uncut center section to make room for the brake springs as seen here. The outer edge of the monolever drum seals with two ridges, but the spoked paralever drum has only one outer ridge with the spoke nipples directly below. I trimmed a little off the outer edge of the hub to make some room, but there wasn't enough material there to cut off, and have some regrets now since it didn't solve the problem.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/36-rear-hub/spring-clearance.jpg

To get the clearance I mounted the drive on the table of a vertical mill using this setup and cut 2mm off the inner sealing ridge. I just used the X and Y hand wheels while watching the cut to manually feed the cutter around the circular path.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/36-rear-hub/milling-drive.jpg

Even with all the cutting I still found the brake spring damper caused the spring to rub on the hub. The damper is really thick and causes the spring to bulge out. I'm not sure if it will rub when the brakes are properly adjusted, since the spring will move out a little when the brake is applied. I'll try a thinner damper if the spring rubs when the brake is setup.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/36-rear-hub/damper-problem.jpg

-x3300
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Old 01-09-2011, 04:25 PM   #117
Rucksta
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There is an alternate spring damper that is internal to the spring and does not incrrease the diameter
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Old 01-23-2011, 02:10 PM   #118
x3300 OP
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Rear Spokes

Machining 21.5mm off the center of the rear wheel hub moved the hub that much closer to the swingarm. To fit a wide tire like the Gripster or TKC-80 I would need to offset the rim to the left to get the needed tire clearance.

With a stock wheel and Metzler ME 880 140/80 tire mounted I measured the gap between the swingarm and tire to be about 10.5mm. I also measured the Gripster to be about 4mm wider than the ME 880, so as a rough figure I thought I'd need about 14mm of offset to have a 3mm tire to swingarm gap. I didn't think I could move the rim over that much and have proper spoke/nipple engagement with stock length spokes. I did have a set of stock length spokes I had bought to use with the paralever rear end, so I decided to do a temporary wheel build with them to get the length difference needed to have proper engagement.

The spoke holes in the hub and wheel are drilled so they are close to being aligned when the wheel is assembled. With a rim offset of 14mm the holes would no longer be aligned. I decided to re-angle the holes a little to reduce the bend of the spokes. Due to the geometry of the wheel some spokes needed a little more rework than others. At first I used a hand drill with a twist drill to do the rim, but then switched to a small end mill chucked in the hand drill which gave me better control.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/37-rear-spokes/rim-holes.jpg

I used an appropriately sized twist drill to do the hub.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/37-rear-spokes/hub-holes.jpg

During my first attempt at building the wheel I found the spokes on the right hand side started to protrude into the nipple so much that the allen key would no longer engage. To continue I ground 3mm off the threaded end of half the spokes. I used this caliper as a length gage while grinding.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/37-rear-spokes/spoke-length.jpg

The rear wheel lacks the bearings of the front wheel, so poses a challenge on how to support it for truing. I used the final drive and swingarm held up in a vise. I found that with no oil and the drive shaft splines disengaged it wasn't too bad. I needed to take the wheel off the drive to work on the spokes that had nipples inside the hub though. I didn't need super precision for the run-out, so I just used this setup with a sheet metal pointer held with a c-clamp.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/37-rear-spokes/truing-wheel.jpg

Once I got the wheel built I checked the tire clearance with several different tires mounted, and it seemed the 14mm offset would be OK. I used this 3mm screw and nuts as a depth gage and found I needed the left hand side spokes 6mm longer. The spokes had enough of the length threaded so that I would be able to use the shortened ones on the right hand side.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/37-rear-spokes/length-check.jpg

Here's the wheel with a TKC-80 tire mounted that shows the offset rim and a little of the tire clearance.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/37-rear-spokes/dish-right.jpg

And a view of the left to compare.

http://stuff.gotdns.org/bike/orgs-build-up/37-rear-spokes/dish-left.jpg

The spokes on the left side of the rim have just a few millimeters of the tread engaged. It is enough to hold the bike up, but I don't think will be strong enough to ride with. I need to get some longer ones to do the final build.

-x3300

x3300 screwed with this post 01-23-2011 at 02:18 PM Reason: Minor text change.
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Old 01-24-2011, 07:14 AM   #119
jgrady1982
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All I have to say is...wow
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Old 01-24-2011, 07:50 AM   #120
bikecat
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X3300,

Great thread, and even greater work!

One question; how difficult it is to rebuild the X-spokes wheel? Literature on the net makes it sound next to impossible.

Cheers
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