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Old 12-21-2010, 08:52 PM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiabloADV View Post
Anecdotes do not a paradigm make.

Sounds anecdotal.



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Old 12-21-2010, 08:57 PM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post

History shows that small teams or individuals develop superior code. You want something fcuked up, let a committee design it.

+1 from me too, seen it happen in a corporate environment many a time.
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Old 12-22-2010, 04:21 AM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiabloADV View Post
That is patently false. Anecdotes do not a paradigm make.
It's not really an anecdote in the software industry. Enough people believed that large groups and the bureaucracy the went with them caused software projects to fail that the agile development manifesto and the Agile Alliance were formed in the spring of 2001. I see this project following the agile development model in a lot of ways.
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Old 12-22-2010, 06:31 AM   #259
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info from the front lines...

the correct approach needs to reflect the size/scope of the project. is the bmw project more like the manhatten project, the next generation of windows, or ?!?

i am very excited to get the hardware, and want to support like typical management... let's throw more people at it!
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Old 12-22-2010, 07:55 AM   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike54 View Post
It's not really an anecdote in the software industry. Enough people believed that large groups and the bureaucracy the went with them caused software projects to fail that the agile development manifesto and the Agile Alliance were formed in the spring of 2001. I see this project following the agile development model in a lot of ways.

Quite so. Very interesting to watch how agile type techniques are followed intuitively, without any decision being made to follow that development philosophy.

Great manifestation of agile.



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Old 12-22-2010, 08:16 AM   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post

Because of my understanding of combustion, and experience with the firmware algorithms that EFI systems use to operate, I know how to optimize and tailor the various inputs or sensors to the EFI to make the boxer motor run better, to make them run the way they are supposed to.

When I first rode the bike in stock, electronically unmodified form, it was apparent what should be done to make it run correctly. There were 3 choices, remove the Motronic ECU and start from scratch, replace it with an aftermarket EFI system, or achieve 80-90% of the needed changes using only external modifications.

Any particular reasons why the 4th option of tuning the stock ECU is not a option?
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Old 12-22-2010, 02:26 PM   #262
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So, How soon?

Will you sell it to the other side of the Atlantic?

I was researching the "accelarator" hardware that works with the air temperature, and found this thread, so I'll wait.... but don't take too long.
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Old 12-22-2010, 03:05 PM   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike in Atlanta View Post
Any particular reasons why the 4th option of tuning the stock ECU is not a option?
We discussed that option. But the logistics were a killah.

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Old 12-22-2010, 09:14 PM   #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkguy View Post
So this is your site?
http://www.boosterplug.com/

No SG, that isn't me. And I'm not these either. 

ReCyclizer http://www.novitech.nl/abouteng.html €35/$45.91
Booster Plug http://www.boosterplug.com $149.95
Accelerator http://sol2.be/Accelerator/English/index.html €40/$52.44 €48/$62.93
Power FRK http://www.powerfrkusa.net $293.00
MemJet http://www.memjetmodule.com $198.00

I've been noticing that EFI product descriptions in general have changed. I'm not singling anyone out. I just mean in general. EFI aftermarket product descriptions have changed to reflect the reality of fuel injection, as opposed to taking advantage of common misconceptions.

JJ calls that stuff 'super hyper marketing glitz'.


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Old 12-22-2010, 09:19 PM   #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike in Atlanta View Post
Any particular reasons why the 4th option of tuning the stock ECU is not a option?
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjen View Post
We discussed that option. But the logistics were a killah.

It is an option at some level, it just didn't occur to us as practical. I mean, the ECUs are programmable by some method or another. Whether a JTAG or BDM port is available externally I do not know. If not, you'd have to open the case and solder a connector to the PCB. The legacy development software may yet be available from Bosch.


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Old 12-23-2010, 09:22 AM   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post



It is an option at some level, it just didn't occur to us as practical. I mean, the ECUs are programmable by some method or another. Whether a JTAG or BDM port is available externally I do not know. If not, you'd have to open the case and solder a connector to the PCB. The legacy development software may yet be available from Bosch.

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Old 12-23-2010, 03:05 PM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post



It is an option at some level, it just didn't occur to us as practical. I mean, the ECUs are programmable by some method or another. Whether a JTAG or BDM port is available externally I do not know. If not, you'd have to open the case and solder a connector to the PCB. The legacy development software may yet be available from Bosch.

I was under the assumption the 1100 and 1150 gs used a bosch motronic with a removable eprom, like the pre OBDII automotive systems?

Why would anything need to be added inside the ecu vs just changing the stock eprom with a tuned eprom? ECU limitations? Concerns/ difficulty for the end user installing a chip and encryption board? Software tuning issues?
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Old 12-23-2010, 11:30 PM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike in Atlanta View Post
I was under the assumption the 1100 and 1150 gs used a bosch motronic with a removable eprom, like the pre OBDII automotive systems?

Why would anything need to be added inside the ecu vs just changing the stock eprom with a tuned eprom? ECU limitations? Concerns/ difficulty for the end user installing a chip and encryption board? Software tuning issues?

I see what you're asking now, and those are good questions. You're right, the Motronic uses a removable EPROM chip. As you probably know there are several vendors of EPROM chips for the Motronic.

Will aftermarket EPROM chips produce the same result as these IICE temperature offset products? I can't say.

What I can say is, the temperature offsets produce as much power and drivability improvements as is possible with fueling changes.


Technical information, propellerhead alert.

The Motronic processor.
The Motronic uses a licensed Intel processor, more than likely an 8051 derivative. The chip itself is made by various manufacturers, Infineon, Siemens, etc.

The 8051 core can support both internal and external program memory. Program memory is often referred to as 'firmware', and represents the 'instructions' the processor follows. Now, the external EPROM may contain only simple fuel map data, but the chances are good the external EPROM also contains program instructions.


Changing the program on the EPROM chip.
The only sensible way to change the Motronic program is to have possession of the original Source Code, and use the ECU Software Development Kit (SDK) from Bosch. That is, if it's still available for the legacy Motronic ECUs.

What if you couldn't do the sensible thing, and didn't have the Source Code, or the Development Kit? Luckily, programmers and guys wanting to modify their bikes are not always sensible. Count me in that group.

Without the original Source Code, to make changes to the program memory requires that the binary data on the chip be 'decompiled'. That means to revert the binary data on the chip back into an 'approximation' of the original cryptic text instructions written by the people who wrote the program. Rendering the decompiled code into an understandable form is an intensive process, and one that rarely succeeds.

But, let's say they get lucky. The code is decompiled, and the team labels enough variables to allow at least partial understanding of the subroutines and the program flow. They now must make changes to the code and test the results.

To have a realistic chance of making changes to the decompiled ECU code requires on-chip JTAG or BDM debugging access. This allows the software engineer to watch the code while it's being executed.


What about these aftermarket Motronic EPROMs? Did the people who made them do all of the above?
In all likelihood, all the aftermarket EPROM chips are identical. It seems likely that everyone using a copy of the same EPROM.


Where did they get the 'original' copy of the EPROM data?
Direct from BMW! The EPROM chip was available as a factory part. I'd say the aftermarket chips are either copies of the 'retuned' EPROM available as a factory part in Europe, or they are copies of the factory-prepared EPROMs used in the 1100S Boxer Cup race series bikes. The series ran between 1999 and 2004.


That's a bold conclusion, Jim. How do you justify it?
If the EPROM contains program memory, and if someone had decompiled the code, then it would be on the interwebs.

Also, if anyone had done that, it would be serious bragging rights. The pressure to claim those bragging rights would be uncontainable. In addition, if the vendors had used these processes, they would have proudly spoken about it on their websites. (It could be that after reading this their website content may change.)

The most compelling thing is, since the modified EPROM was available from BMW, it is highly unlikely the vendors are doing anything more complicated than making copies of the BMW Boxer Cup EPROM.



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Poolside screwed with this post 12-24-2010 at 08:50 AM
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Old 12-24-2010, 01:02 AM   #269
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Also, if anyone had done that, it would be serious bragging rights. The pressure to claim those bragging rights would be uncontainable.
I think you are right. In particular: Knowing that someone has done it doesn't make it less hard for you to do it.
So bragging about your achievement does not help you competitors.

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Old 12-24-2010, 06:11 AM   #270
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EPROM Burning

If you would like to know more about EPROM tuning here is the guy you want to talk to. Marc Salvisberg At FACTORY PRO (415) 491-5920. I had him fly into town and and burn a custom chip for my Aprilia a few years back. really nice guy. I ran a chip in my R1150GS and it was a night and day diff. The chip still had the diff maps which could be activated via the cat code plug. Heres a little more on that. http://www.2ridetheworld.com/new_mod_pages/bbpower_chip.htm
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