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Old 12-22-2010, 04:04 PM   #31
BergDonk OP
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Jetting
The airbox snorkel is removed and top opened up.
After much experimenting, including initially making up my own needle from and old FCR needle I had lying about, I got a Dynojet kit from Procycle.

Much more experimenting, and this is where I'm at:
Main 145
Pilot 37.5
FS 0.875 turns
DJ needle 4th clip from bottom
drilled slide

Leaner than most, but now working well with no surging and good economy, and pretty clean roll on from a closed throttle. Still no FCR, but thats coming, my Berg benchmark is a problem

Steve
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Old 12-22-2010, 05:50 PM   #32
dljocky
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Great write up. What kind of clock is that next to the speedo?
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Old 12-22-2010, 05:53 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by dljocky View Post
Great write up. What kind of clock is that next to the speedo?
Just a small battery one from the local auto parts, or electronics place that I had in the shed. Velcroed on to the black plastic dash I made up out of an old driving light cover I had lying about.

Steve
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Old 12-22-2010, 08:31 PM   #34
kezzajohnson
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nice one

Great write up -thanks for taking the time and effort for us all.
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Old 12-22-2010, 10:40 PM   #35
kaijb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BergDonk View Post
The 650 with some pipe and carb work puts out 63 hp at the wheel on the dyno


Steve
Nice machining work. I know Snowy well and have ridden his bike so appreciate what the mods can do.

63HP is a big big number even for a DR. Are you sure it was that high? Many 4 valve 650's struggle to get that much.
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Old 12-22-2010, 11:51 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by kaijb View Post
Nice machining work. I know Snowy well and have ridden his bike so appreciate what the mods can do.

63HP is a big big number even for a DR. Are you sure it was that high? Many 4 valve 650's struggle to get that much.
Not the DR. My 650 Berg has 63hp at the knobs, on the dyno, lights up at any speed in any gear, instantly. The suspension is also Frank Pons' WP test bed, been through a few iterations, and it just works, and has created a benchmark that causes me to try and get the DR up to in some areas.

I'm not trying the match the 63 hp, but better throttle response will be nice. With the jetting noted above it now works better than ever, but I know with an FCR it'll be better again. I'm familiar with FCRs, having fitted one to my 501 Berg years ago, as well as playing with the 650 Berg's stock one. And besides, I enjoy the shed time, I've never had a stock bike for long, just enjoy playing with them to improve them, and then ride them, analyse whats happening, and then play some more in the shed. I can't help myself, its a drug

I even built my first frame in the mid 1970s when I created a monocoque one for my highly tuned CB500, but that's a whole other story.

I met Snowy once, on a DSMRA ride in Tallaganda early this year. He'd not long fitted the forks, and I'd not long got my DR, so I was interested. I was hugely entertained on the day following him, seeing him run wide as he struggled to pull up it for turns, and overshooting many. No point going past as it was too much fun following, watching him create new trails

I know KTMatt too, as I've ridden with him a number of times on DSMRA rides, and he's had a play on my 650 Berg too, and he's building a bash plate for me.

I don't know what geometry differences exist with a RM/RMZ front end, but being off a similar spec bike, presumably the damping and springing is similar, so would perform somewhat the same perhaps, but as Snowy and others have said, huge improvement, even over my resprung, gold valved, and tuned and assembled by Frank stockers. And the WP front end offered a drgree of familiarity from my Bergs, and price was right on the day, so went that way. Now just got to service them and fit some new seals. Next week, got other priorities in the meantime, Merry Christmas.

Cheers
Steve
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BergDonk screwed with this post 12-23-2010 at 12:17 AM
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Old 12-22-2010, 11:53 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BergDonk View Post
Jetting
The airbox snorkel is removed and top opened up.
After much experimenting, including initially making up my own needle from and old FCR needle I had lying about, I got a Dynojet kit from Procycle.

Much more experimenting, and this is where I'm at:
Main 145
Pilot 37.5
FS 0.875 turns
DJ needle 4th clip from bottom
drilled slide

Leaner than most, but now working well with no surging and good economy, and pretty clean roll on from a closed throttle. Still no FCR, but thats coming, my Berg benchmark is a problem

Steve
And I forgot to mention that I'm around 800 m, so this works OK at sea level and higher, a nice compromise.
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Old 12-23-2010, 12:01 AM   #38
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Engine Oil – My answer to the question?

Caltex/Chevron Delo 400. They have other Delos, (DELO, aka Diesel Engine Lubrication Oil) including Delo 400 LE which you do not want, just Delo 400. The last I got was $85 per 20l drum, but is about $35 at the servo for 5l.

Its 15/40 and was recommended to me for the Bergs by a guy who raced them and won in the States, and was also a petrochemist who was involved in its development with Chevron. Excellent credentials. Many use it in their Bergs as a result, once they overcome the obvious concerns, and don't go back.

In the only scientific test I could do, the valve gear was repaired in my 501 after a cam follower bearing failed at about the time they do, ie 150 hrs. My fault for letting it go too far. At the time I switched from Mobil 1 Racing 4T used up until then. A well regarded full synthetic bike specific oil. Now another 300 hrs and valve gear is still fine, along with the rest of the motor with original bottom end still, with Delo 400 exclusively. It goes in all the dirt bikes here, and my tractor, is semi synthetic and works great with wet clutches and rolling element bearing motors.

http://www.caltex.com.au/ProductsAndServices/Pages/LubricantProducts.aspx?Category=Heavy+Duty+Diesel+Engine+Oils
http://www.caltex.com.au/ProductsAndServices/Pages/ProductDescription.aspx?ID=1639

Perfect for the big trip, because its available pretty much anywhere.


Because you wanted to know
Steve
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Old 12-23-2010, 01:13 AM   #39
kaijb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BergDonk View Post
Not the DR. My 650 Berg has 63hp at the knobs, on the dyno, lights up at any speed in any gear, instantly. The suspension is also Frank Pons' WP test bed, been through a few iterations, and it just works, and has created a benchmark that causes me to try and get the DR up to in some areas.

I'm not trying the match the 63 hp, but better throttle response will be nice. With the jetting noted above it now works better than ever, but I know with an FCR it'll be better again. I'm familiar with FCRs, having fitted one to my 501 Berg years ago, as well as playing with the 650 Berg's stock one. And besides, I enjoy the shed time, I've never had a stock bike for long, just enjoy playing with them to improve them, and then ride them, analyse whats happening, and then play some more in the shed. I can't help myself, its a drug

I even built my first frame in the mid 1970s when I created a monocoque one for my highly tuned CB500, but that's a whole other story.

I met Snowy once, on a DSMRA ride in Tallaganda early this year. He'd not long fitted the forks, and I'd not long got my DR, so I was interested. I was hugely entertained on the day following him, seeing him run wide as he struggled to pull up it for turns, and overshooting many. No point going past as it was too much fun following, watching him create new trails

I know KTMatt too, as I've ridden with him a number of times on DSMRA rides, and he's had a play on my 650 Berg too, and he's building a bash plate for me.

I don't know what geometry differences exist with a RM/RMZ front end, but being off a similar spec bike, presumably the damping and springing is similar, so would perform somewhat the same perhaps, but as Snowy and others have said, huge improvement, even over my resprung, gold valved, and tuned and assembled by Frank stockers. And the WP front end offered a drgree of familiarity from my Bergs, and price was right on the day, so went that way. Now just got to service them and fit some new seals. Next week, got other priorities in the meantime, Merry Christmas.

Cheers
Steve
That makes sense.

The berg produces stupid silly power and weighs nothing. I am glad you are not claiming those ponies from the DR.....mind you I saw some supermono's in the UK making those sort of numbers from the DR donk but hand grenades I must say.

Since Snowy fitted the RMZ swingarm, his bike well and truly out handles the engine. It is a credit to him and makes you want one....for a bit.
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Old 12-23-2010, 02:04 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaijb View Post
That makes sense.

The berg produces stupid silly power and weighs nothing. I am glad you are not claiming those ponies from the DR.....mind you I saw some supermono's in the UK making those sort of numbers from the DR donk but hand grenades I must say.

Since Snowy fitted the RMZ swingarm, his bike well and truly out handles the engine. It is a credit to him and makes you want one....for a bit.
And the thing is that the hp is useless if it can't be used. The Berg's 63 hp makes for fun bragging rights, but would be useless if it wasn't so usable, predicatble, linear, and with no powerband to speak of, just goes from off idle. The DR is peakier, believe it or not.

But the DR is also smooth and has enough power to do what I want it to, the centre and Kimberly mid 2011 among other adventures. I just like fiddling, refining and improving. I've learnt over the years to mostly leave engine internals factory, and play with the outside for reliability, and cost effectiveness. The best money you can spend is actually on rider training followed by suspension.

Steve
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Old 12-23-2010, 02:48 AM   #41
kaijb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BergDonk View Post
And the thing is that the hp is useless if it can't be used. The Berg's 63 hp makes for fun bragging rights, but would be useless if it wasn't so usable, predicatble, linear, and with no powerband to speak of, just goes from off idle. The DR is peakier, believe it or not.

But the DR is also smooth and has enough power to do what I want it to, the centre and Kimberly mid 2011 among other adventures. I just like fiddling, refining and improving. I've learnt over the years to mostly leave engine internals factory, and play with the outside for reliability, and cost effectiveness. The best money you can spend is actually on rider training followed by suspension.

Steve
I am a big fan of suspension first and foremost. I would take Snowy's bike anywhere but standard they crack the swingarm and that is a weakness you do not want on any bike.

I would like to try the dr600 twin port head on the 650. It ran a flat slide and the KTM headers fit right up. I think that could help but it is just a guess...
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Old 12-23-2010, 04:38 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaijb View Post
I am a big fan of suspension first and foremost. I would take Snowy's bike anywhere but standard they crack the swingarm and that is a weakness you do not want on any bike.

I would like to try the dr600 twin port head on the 650. It ran a flat slide and the KTM headers fit right up. I think that could help but it is just a guess...
Yeh, the cracking swingarm is a worry. My thinking at this stage is that I'm not doing big air, and with a properly controlled movement with the Ohlins, which was put in the mail yesterday, so maybe arrives today, will result in a more controlled movement and reduced shock (sic) loadings on the swingarm. We shall see, but it doesn't seem to be that many, ie other than Snowy, reporting it as a problem AFAIK.

Chronic issues I've become aware of apart from the upper chain roller is the cush drive bearing, which could have killed me when it failed, derailing the chain and locking the rear wheel, and I'm told the kill switch is an issue when exposed to bulldust and fine sand. The supposed fix which I've implemented is to remove the detent spring so it doesn't stay 'killed'.

I know of a couple of other DR650s locally with failed cush drive bearings, which the owners assumed to be one offs at the time. The training and tour company I'm associated with, Stay Upright, used to carry the cush drive bearings with them and often changed tham at the end of day maintenance.

My original cush drive bearing failed at 14,000 kms. Having a close look reveals that it is not centred on the sprocket, so there is twisting moment applied that possibly contributes to premature failure. I plan change it out at say every +/- 10,000 kms, or each new chain, or something, but failure is catastrophic, and painfull, and they only cost about $6 and take about 10 mins to change. It may also be that the original not having double seals didn't help.

Steve
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Old 12-23-2010, 08:50 PM   #43
kezzajohnson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BergDonk View Post

...Chronic issues I've become aware of apart from the upper chain roller is the cush drive bearing, which could have killed me when it failed, derailing the chain and locking the rear wheel, and I'm told the kill switch is an issue when exposed to bulldust and fine sand. The supposed fix which I've implemented is to remove the detent spring so it doesn't stay 'killed'.

I know of a couple of other DR650s locally with failed cush drive bearings, which the owners assumed to be one offs at the time. The training and tour company I'm associated with, Stay Upright, used to carry the cush drive bearings with them and often changed tham at the end of day maintenance.

My original cush drive bearing failed at 14,000 kms. Having a close look reveals that it is not centred on the sprocket, so there is twisting moment applied that possibly contributes to premature failure. I plan change it out at say every +/- 10,000 kms, or each new chain, or something, but failure is catastrophic, and painfull, and they only cost about $6 and take about 10 mins to change. It may also be that the original not having double seals didn't help.

Steve
Now you've got me worried. I haven't heard of the cush bearing failure before but I don't doubt (especially with the Stay Upright experience), that there could be an issue there. I would be interested to know how many other DR owners might have had the same problem but perhaps think that theirs was an isolated case.

I changed mine out, including wheel bearings, as a matter of routine service at around 15,000kms. They were all looking pretty 'ordinary' by then, but were only the single sided seal type (OEM), and having only been checked and lubed once previously. I did upgrade to quality CBC bearings (blue double sided seals) but can't remember how much they were, but do know they weren't cheepies. I don't understand how the bearing could be off centre in the carrier however. That is really strange.
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Old 12-23-2010, 11:32 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by kezzajohnson View Post
Now you've got me worried. I haven't heard of the cush bearing failure before but I don't doubt (especially with the Stay Upright experience), that there could be an issue there. I would be interested to know how many other DR owners might have had the same problem but perhaps think that theirs was an isolated case.

I changed mine out, including wheel bearings, as a matter of routine service at around 15,000kms. They were all looking pretty 'ordinary' by then, but were only the single sided seal type (OEM), and having only been checked and lubed once previously. I did upgrade to quality CBC bearings (blue double sided seals) but can't remember how much they were, but do know they weren't cheepies. I don't understand how the bearing could be off centre in the carrier however. That is really strange.
I had a cush drive bearing fail on my last DR. Locked at 115kmh just cresting a rise, the released and locked again. I kept it upright. The bearing wasnt that old but I think something damaged the seal and we had been riding in sand that day. I had been hearing a strange noise but couldnt trace it.
Trashed the cush drive an bent a new chain
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Old 12-23-2010, 11:58 PM   #45
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You'll start to notice the play in the cush drive long before it fails.

Mine was so loose that when I started to slip the clutch, if I looked down and back at the sprocket I could see the sideways movement of about 10mm at the rear.

The standard bearing has a seal in only one side. So it fills with dust and crud every time you ride/wash it.

The bearings I got from Suzuki as replacements were off the shelf SKS bearings with 2 seals. I repacked them with a mixture of Moly grease, Nulon grease and added Graphite. My own concoction that is aimed at being both a grease and an anti seize.

I think the standard bearing gave out at around the 18000km mark. Bear in mind that I do around 50/50 trail/tar commuting. After I fitted the new bearing the bike has been used for trips and trail riding only. No commuting.



Pulling the DR up is an interesting exercise. I used the RMZ front end complete, and the brake disc is smaller - 265mm - so brake force decreases. In the dirt I can still lock it up, but tyre selection is crucial to getting it to stop.

At the Tallanganda ride I used the Mitas E09 front and rear, and the biggest thing I noticed was the front will not hook up on single track. Great on dirt roads, tar roads etc, but forget it on single track. I also had the RMZ rear shock working through a modified DR linkage to the standard DR swingarm. The spring rate was too soft if being pushed hard. "Trail riding" the 5.6 spring was good. But the minute you start pushing harder, like chasing the guys on the 250s and 450s, then you have to have the compression damping up a little harder and it tends to hop in the back end, which in turn affects the way it brakes and steers coming into tight turns.

I did a lot of tyre testing after that because I didn't like the excursions into the trees. I think Steve was right behind me when I hit some greasy clay going hard in third gear. The track dog legged, and when I went to brake it just let go. So I stood it up straight aimed for the gap between the trees and tried to just bull ride it to a stop.

Dunlop 952 front, Mitas Stoneking C02 rear. That combo works best on the dry rocky trails around here. The rear can feel very skatey, but it's predictable. The Mitas will drive and turn, the Dunlop steers and stops really well.

At the moment I'm running a 2006 RMZ front end. The 2007 RMZ front end is off being rebuilt. They are nothing alike as far as fitment issues go. But as far as they work, very similar. The 2006 is a single chamber design, and the 2007 is twin chamber. I prefer working on the single chamber after having both sets stripped down.

A scratched fork leg has chewed up the seal on the brake side of the 2007. So keep an eye on the condition of the lower legs. I knew it was scratched, and I used 2000 grade wet and dry to polish most of it out, but it still chewed out the seal.

Keep me posted and drop me a PM if you want a riding partner over the break.
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