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Old 01-02-2011, 05:08 PM   #346
shreddr
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will your devices work for the R1200S model?
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Old 01-02-2011, 05:58 PM   #347
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will your devices work for the R1200S model?

The model for the air temperature works on all EFI models. The next device is for motor temp on the 1100/1150. The third device, for motor temp on the 1200 hexhead and camhead, is coming later.



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Old 01-02-2011, 10:34 PM   #348
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I'll add my fifty cents here coming from my experience in the world of Volkswagen TDI engine tuning. Way back when, when the TDIs first came out people did add-ons - mainly because the amount of people who could do chip tuning were very few and these add-ons did had positive results. These add-ons basically fooled the ECU by going between the ECU and said device (Air Mass Sensor for example - similar to the intake air temp sensor mod for BMWs) to modify the signal to change the fueling rate / injection timing. These devices do work, but each and every time chip tuning (when done correctly!) does a better job. Mixing chip tuning and ad-ons usually spells disaster as it usually maxes out a particular parameter and thing go for a coffee and bacon induced poo.

With TDI chip tuning there is both modifying the ECUs "operating system" to remove things like immobilizers, EGR etc and modifying tables of data: inputs from sensors and outputs to devices. By saying that, I am aware of no software mods that execute the data from the tables any better.

So in the end, both approaches of fooling the ECU and modifying the software tables will result in improved performance.

Needless to say, I am involved in chip tuning and making improvements to things like injectors and breathing not sensor fooling. That being said, I don't do Motronic tuning so... I want my bike to run better so I'll take what I can get!
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Old 01-02-2011, 11:44 PM   #349
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Do you guys have the ECU 'source code' instructions for the Volkswagen? And are changes being made to the source instructions, or only to the tables?

On the TDI, since there's a turbocharger, there's a MAP sensor available to manipulate. Do you know if that's what the sensor add-on components were doing? That brings a new level to sensor tuning "done correctly".

If either is done correctly, it's like comparing apples and apples.


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Old 01-03-2011, 07:01 PM   #350
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Where is the motronic getting air density? Is it a builtin sensor in the ECU assembly?
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roadrage screwed with this post 01-03-2011 at 07:01 PM Reason: fixin my lousy grammar
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Old 01-03-2011, 07:14 PM   #351
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Where is the motronic getting air density? Is it a builtin sensor in the ECU assembly?

The Motronic uses a built in barometric sensor for air pressure, and the intake air sensor for air temperature. Those two variables provide the air density.


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Old 01-03-2011, 07:37 PM   #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
Do you guys have the ECU 'source code' instructions for the Volkswagen? And are changes being made to the source instructions, or only to the tables?

On the TDI, since there's a turbocharger, there's a MAP sensor available to manipulate. Do you know if that's what the sensor add-on components were doing? That brings a new level to sensor tuning "done correctly".

If either is done correctly, it's like comparing apples and apples.

The source code is really a Bosch thing - even for Volkswagen and it is based on an Intel processor designed for cars. So if one spoke assembly language and knew what each of the registers does then one could easily follow the program. If you only know how C++ or Visual Basic or Java works then you have no clue how assembly language works! Each command in these higher level languages is dozens of commands at the CPU level - where you do thing literally one step at a time. The high level languages take your "human" code and turn it into machine code. There really is no simple or even difficult way to go from machine code to human code - it's more like über complex!

Really smart people have written programs to reprogram TDIs and Bosch Motronic (1.8T) where you can visually look at the tables and with a click of the mouse change things... this is after 15 years of TDI and there are a lot more TDIs out there than BMWs. I think I am going to crack open my Motronic 2.2 ECU on my 1100 and see what I can see with one of these programs... could be quite simple!

Also, like I was saying there is the ECU's source code that can also be manipulated to turn off things like the immobilizer or EGR system or if you want to use a 3.0 bar MAP instead of a 2.5 bar MAP that is all part of the "source" for the ECU.

All the sensor add-ons would do is give the ECU a more favorable signal that works better with the original software. So just the like air intake sensor mod for the BMW where the ECU believes that it is cooler than it really is so there for it delivers a different (richer) mixer that makes more power. Once you put chip tuning on there you are in effect doubling those efforts and sometimes (most of the time!) that is too much.

I have a feeling that if someone was to crack the immobilizer routines for the R1200 ECUs there would be some happy customers!

CAN bus programming is also something to look at. 35W HIDs on a 55W circuit makes an error... but... if you change what CAN is looking for (like don't care how many watts) then there's no problem.
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Old 01-03-2011, 08:56 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by hasenwerk View Post
The source code is really a Bosch thing - even for Volkswagen and it is based on an Intel processor designed for cars. So if one spoke assembly language and knew what each of the registers does then one could easily follow the program. If you only know how C++ or Visual Basic or Java works then you have no clue how assembly language works! Each command in these higher level languages is dozens of commands at the CPU level - where you do thing literally one step at a time. The high level languages take your "human" code and turn it into machine code. There really is no simple or even difficult way to go from machine code to human code - it's more like über complex!
Roger that. I never went any further than C. My primary experience is assembly. But heck, these days 32 bit controllers are commonplace and make it practical to use a higher order language.

Also, like I was saying there is the ECU's source code that can also be manipulated to turn off things like the immobilizer or EGR system or if you want to use a 3.0 bar MAP instead of a 2.5 bar MAP that is all part of the "source" for the ECU.
I get that the flag bits are all part of it, though I wouldn't necessarily put flipping a state flag in the same category as changing the source instructions. Immobilizer on/off is amounts to a flag bit.

All the sensor add-ons would do is give the ECU a more favorable signal that works better with the original software. So just the like air intake sensor mod for the BMW where the ECU believes that it is cooler than it really is so there for it delivers a different (richer) mixer that makes more power. Once you put chip tuning on there you are in effect doubling those efforts and sometimes (most of the time!) that is too much.
Absolutely. Multiple add-ons can provide too much as well.

CAN bus programming is also something to look at. 35W HIDs on a 55W circuit makes an error... but... if you change what CAN is looking for (like don't care how many watts) then there's no problem.
Lots of things are possible if you get 'inside' the controllers and change simple things like flag bits, or a byte that defines the amperage threshold for the lights. About the 35W vs. 55W lighting; Current sensing control is inside the ZFE box, and isn't related to CANbus.

If you wanted to do things like that, if it were me I would put a serial data logger onto the OBD port, and bring the bike in for service. Log the communication between the BMW Diagnostic Console, and the ECU and other controllers on the bike.



p.s.: I am really fond of those TDI Volkswagens!


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Poolside screwed with this post 01-03-2011 at 09:02 PM Reason: p.s.
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Old 01-03-2011, 09:13 PM   #354
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The Motronic uses a built in barometric sensor for air pressure, and the intake air sensor for air temperature. Those two variables provide the air density.

Thanks - thought I had read something about the sensor being built in but couldn't find it again.
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Old 01-04-2011, 07:04 AM   #355
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Old 01-04-2011, 07:24 AM   #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post

Lots of things are possible if you get 'inside' the controllers and change simple things like flag bits, or a byte that defines the amperage threshold for the lights. About the 35W vs. 55W lighting; Current sensing control is inside the ZFE box, and isn't related to CANbus.

If you wanted to do things like that, if it were me I would put a serial data logger onto the OBD port, and bring the bike in for service. Log the communication between the BMW Diagnostic Console, and the ECU and other controllers on the bike.



p.s.: I am really fond of those TDI Volkswagens!

A couple years ago, I had a chance to talk to Steve Dinan about how his company had decoded the BMW car software. That's how they captured the data but they have their own GT1s so there was less subterfuge.
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Old 01-04-2011, 07:30 AM   #357
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Hey guys, my O2 sensor is disconnected. Will your devices still work on my bike (02 GS)?
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Old 01-04-2011, 01:38 PM   #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anorak View Post
A couple years ago, I had a chance to talk to Steve Dinan about how his company had decoded the BMW car software. That's how they captured the data but they have their own GT1s so there was less subterfuge.

Using the BMW GT1 diagnostic console, with a serial data logger, makes the most sense.


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Old 01-04-2011, 01:40 PM   #359
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Hey guys, my O2 sensor is disconnected. Will your devices still work on my bike (02 GS)?

Yes.


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Old 01-05-2011, 08:27 AM   #360
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How about the discarded cat code plug crowd? Not to mention the Steptoe mod folks...
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