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Old 02-06-2011, 10:46 AM   #91
RaY YreKa
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Originally Posted by jrfuisz View Post
So is the thinking that it will be impossible to get any air/oil cooled engine past emissions in a year or two?

If not, then the emissions issue is a canard. There will be a lot of bikes that no longer exist in the next few years if that is true.

I suspect the real issue is the perceived need by marketing to offer more power to sell bikes. Maybe it's lost sales to the multistrada. But at 120-130 hp I'm not buying a new GS. Rather sad.
It's already happened, qv. DL1000.
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Old 02-06-2011, 11:31 AM   #92
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And yet a Ural can? In think you are confusing a willingness to make an engine emissions compliant and the ability to do so. Compliance just means a drop in HP. There is no reason a R1200 can't make the cut but it would also drop in HP. It is not a technological issue.

It is why ducat went from a 600 to a 620 to the 685 while hp stayed more or less the same.

R1200GS has a marketing problem. It needs the boxer engine for the history but has to compete with the HP war as the bikes become less adventure and more tourer. It is hard to compete against Ducati, Triumph, etc and drop HP especially when these bikes get less and less off road capable.

Any mfg that is claiming they "can't" make an engine emission compliant should call URAL.
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Old 02-06-2011, 12:27 PM   #93
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Couldn't a F1200GS (2-cyl/4-cyl) with ~150hp compete with a Multistrada and the R1200GS is kept as is, high torque with ~100hp and lower max rpm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrfuisz View Post
And yet a Ural can? In think you are confusing a willingness to make an engine emissions compliant and the ability to do so. Compliance just means a drop in HP. There is no reason a R1200 can't make the cut but it would also drop in HP. It is not a technological issue.

It is why ducat went from a 600 to a 620 to the 685 while hp stayed more or less the same.

R1200GS has a marketing problem. It needs the boxer engine for the history but has to compete with the HP war as the bikes become less adventure and more tourer. It is hard to compete against Ducati, Triumph, etc and drop HP especially when these bikes get less and less off road capable.

Any mfg that is claiming they "can't" make an engine emission compliant should call URAL.
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Old 02-06-2011, 02:33 PM   #94
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In my opinon, the new water cooled GS does not need/should not compete with the new 150 h.p. Multistrada (or similar); heck, the Multistrada is really just a big upright sport bike, which stole a lot of style que’s “this time” from the GS along with BMW’s ESA. Also it’s gotta chain and “no” telelever front end.

What’s great about any GS really, is its ability to be easily altered to suit a variety of riding styles, i.e. touring, fire trails/dirt, canyon carving/sport riding. Also, it's opposed twin motor provides great “real world/usable power” and has wonderful gyroscopic’s/balance.

As for the new water-cooled GS, I am eagerly awaiting it and hope that BMW builds on from an already fantastic “real world” do-it-all machine, if I want more h.p./upright sportbike, heck there's the FZ1, Ducati Multistrada to name a couple.

Mike K.
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Old 02-06-2011, 03:06 PM   #95
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Bike magazine had a Thirty Years of the GS supplement at the end of last year, and it contained an interview with one of the senior Motorrad engineers. He reckoned that the air cooled engine could pass all current and upcoming emissions standards. That makes me surprised that BMW has a new one coming so soon after the latest update was unveiled.

That said, one of the articles above mentioned a four valve, twin plug head, which could suggest the Wasserboxer is an evolution of the current engine.

If the new engine is narrower than the old one then it could be lighter, as there's less metal involved.

And a new R1200S? That's me sorted.
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Old 02-06-2011, 04:49 PM   #96
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Are all the photos and speculations well based?
Likely so.

No-body has yet mentioned the s- word.
(SuperTenere 1200)

As a competent competitor to the 1200GS, the Yamaha is definitely attractive, and might in future take a significant bite of 1200GS sales.

Despite our own Advrider interest & bias toward dual-ish purpose adventure-tourers, the lion's share of sales of an all-rounder like the 1200GS, definitely go to riders who stay on-road 99+% of the time. Sure, these riders may have a touch of RTW fantasy lingering in their minds, but Pavement Performance is where they're really at.

Power is seductive.
And a bigger (slightly) engine and a 25% power-to-weight advantage over the Yamaha, would be a good attractor of sales, lifting the BMW into a "higher bracket" in the minds of potential purchasers.
130-ish horsepower could also claim some sales from the Multistrada 1200.
(Nice as it is, the Multistrada is still very much the road-based bike. Borderline wheel-travel [170 mm] and a laughably small 17 inch front wheel [without availability of dual-purpose tires] eliminate 90% of its all-rounder capabilities. But it is stylish, has a trendy & slightly off-road Name, and above all - is powerful.)
Water-cooling is useful for Power. Emissions benefits are probably a very minor consideration.

The traditional boxer air-cooling has much to be said for it.
But, with a well protected radiator, water-cooling has a great deal to recommend it - also, it hasn't put-off R800GS buyers.
The boxer design is actually well suited to "hybrid" cooling - sufficient finning over the cylinders' water-jacketing, can permit a smaller radiator : and perhaps even allow "limp-home" capability (if coolant loss occurs).

And here with a strikingly new design, is a face-saving opportunity to re-do some of those components to the rear of the engine, and overcome past "non-problems".
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Old 02-07-2011, 03:00 AM   #97
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I remember when Porsche was switching to Agua cooled boxers on the 911. Lots of controversy, many thought it would be the undoing of Porsche. They seemed to have weathered the storm quite well, not to mention now making lots more HP,etc etc. (Ya, they do weigh more - but they're not nearly as spartan inside as they were 'back in the day').

I guess I've been reluctant embrace change on many 'new and improved thing's, and more often than not, have ended up adopting later on. Keeping that in mind and wanting to learn from my mistakes, I'm open to the water cooled boxer. While not everything lives up to its claim of 'New and Improved', the water cooled boxer is the way of the future, like it or not.

indycar screwed with this post 02-07-2011 at 03:05 AM
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Old 02-07-2011, 06:18 AM   #98
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I wonder why they even bothered with the camhead if they were about to come out with this.
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Old 02-07-2011, 06:32 AM   #99
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I dont get it.
So out of the blue a spanish publication comes out with these pics and especially those of the engine, exhaust and radiator. The rest of the media did not have a clue?
Somethin smells fishy!
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Old 02-07-2011, 06:55 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesky View Post
I wonder why they even bothered with the camhead if they were about to come out with this.
Exactly! IMHO It will be several more years before this comes to pass, if it does!

Jim
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Old 02-07-2011, 07:14 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnullarbor View Post
.
Are all the photos and speculations well based?
Likely so.

No-body has yet mentioned the s- word.
(SuperTenere 1200)

As a competent competitor to the 1200GS, the Yamaha is definitely attractive, and might in future take a significant bite of 1200GS sales.

Despite our own Advrider interest & bias toward dual-ish purpose adventure-tourers, the lion's share of sales of an all-rounder like the 1200GS, definitely go to riders who stay on-road 99+% of the time. Sure, these riders may have a touch of RTW fantasy lingering in their minds, but Pavement Performance is where they're really at.

Power is seductive.
And a bigger (slightly) engine and a 25% power-to-weight advantage over the Yamaha, would be a good attractor of sales, lifting the BMW into a "higher bracket" in the minds of potential purchasers.
130-ish horsepower could also claim some sales from the Multistrada 1200.
(Nice as it is, the Multistrada is still very much the road-based bike. Borderline wheel-travel [170 mm] and a laughably small 17 inch front wheel [without availability of dual-purpose tires] eliminate 90% of its all-rounder capabilities. But it is stylish, has a trendy & slightly off-road Name, and above all - is powerful.)
Water-cooling is useful for Power. Emissions benefits are probably a very minor consideration.

The traditional boxer air-cooling has much to be said for it.
But, with a well protected radiator, water-cooling has a great deal to recommend it - also, it hasn't put-off R800GS buyers.
The boxer design is actually well suited to "hybrid" cooling - sufficient finning over the cylinders' water-jacketing, can permit a smaller radiator : and perhaps even allow "limp-home" capability (if coolant loss occurs).

And here with a strikingly new design, is a face-saving opportunity to re-do some of those components to the rear of the engine, and overcome past "non-problems".
This is what I have been feeling all along. The R Series GS is nothing more than a pavement pounder and dirt road rider and BMW is catering to this market quite well. You don't need 100+ hp to do a round the world trip and the R series is too big of a bike for serious RTW adventures.

If you want a serious RTW bike and want to stay with BMW then it is the F800 GS - 21" front wheel, lighter weight, better fuel consumption and much cheaper price.

If I was to do my RTW trip tomorrow and it had to be on a bike produced in the last three years or two upcoming years, it would be the F800 all the way.
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Old 02-07-2011, 07:53 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
Exactly! IMHO It will be several more years before this comes to pass, if it does!
The bike in the spyshots looks like it could be production ready, particularly in the original photos at Solomoto. The plastics on it are different to the current GS, and it's more finished than the Triumph Tiger 1200 that was spotted last autumn.

I'd expect a 2012 model. Though BMW are rumoured to be running the old air cooled design in parallel to the new model to give the traditionalists time to adjust.
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Old 02-07-2011, 07:57 AM   #103
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I am thinking a 2013 model out in late 2012.
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Old 02-07-2011, 08:03 AM   #104
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I am thinking a 2013 model out in late 2012.
Damnit Dean, I hate it when you do that! You are almost always right!

Jim

PS OK, so who is up for a free service on the new Waterhead?
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Old 02-07-2011, 08:05 AM   #105
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Maybe 2014?

It was 01-04 (4 years of the 1150)
It was 05-09 (5 years of the hexhead)

Sooooo, '10,11,12,13 is 4 years of CamHead.

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Exactly! IMHO It will be several more years before this comes to pass, if it does!

Jim
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