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Old 02-28-2011, 09:45 AM   #16
YetiGS OP
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Originally Posted by jamesdemien View Post
Is it really better or are we just sticking it to the man?
That's a matter of opinion. I could not care less about sticking it to the man, I like sticking it to women.


That said, the US is the only place in the world that has the charcol canisters and we're also the only place that has tanks cracking. Coincidence? I also wanted to free up that space for something that actually does something . . .
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Old 02-28-2011, 10:10 AM   #17
The Griz
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Originally Posted by jamesdemien View Post
Is it really better or are we just sticking it to the man?
It's only better if you're having runnability problems. If your bike runs fine and you haven't had any problems then there's really no need to remove the charcoal canister. Do you have a 2011 F800GS? I would be willing to bet that the charcoal canister recall work has already been done on your bike if it is a late 2010 or 2011, making it even more pointless to remove the charcoal canister.

Remember, it does serve a purpose. Even though there are countries that don't require them, we do here in the USA due to our EPA laws. It's purpose is to keep purged fuel liquid and vapors that exit from the gas tank vent line from evaporating into the atmosphere. A little known fact is that evaporating gasoline fumes/gases are in effect many many times worse for our atmosphere and the creatures that live within it than even exhaust gases. This is why it is so important to the EPA lately for all internal combustion vehicles to have a charcoal canister system.
It captures fuel vapors and prevents them from escaping to the atmosphere and then stores the fumes and recycles them to the fuel tank or engine intake for combustion as needed. The long and short of it is that it helps to protect the environment and improve fuel economy.


All that said, in the first 2 years or so of production on the USA F800GS and F650GS2's, BMW pretty much screwed up the routing on the hoses, so that if you rode through rain or standing water, the system would suck water up into the charcoal canister. This in turn would clog air/vapor flow through the charcoal canister, wreaking havoc on the very finely tuned pressurized fuel delivery system on this bike, causing stalling and runnability issues. However, BMW finally recognized their error and sent out recall notices and bulletins to check all hose routing for charcoal canisters.

Here's how BMW originally designed it:

Red is outside air flow and blue is fuel vapor flow:




Then, in a recall bulletin, here's how they've fixed the issue:

Adding a Y-fitting, they added a line to the ground vent hose that goes up high into the bike, so that when the engine/throttle bodies are sucking in fuel vapors from the canister to be burned off they don't also suck in water from the ground or from rain:
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Old 02-28-2011, 10:12 AM   #18
Ceri JC
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Originally Posted by The Griz View Post
No, you would not want to clamp or restrict air flow in or out of the fuel tank via the breather valve. The fuel system uses this valve to be able to maintain the correct pressure within the tank and fuel system. If you were to clamp or restrict this valve, you would effectively be re-creating the "charcoal canister recall problem" without the charcoal canister in line.
Ta for clearing that up for me.
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Old 02-28-2011, 11:22 AM   #19
The Griz
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Originally Posted by Ceri JC View Post
Ta for clearing that up for me.

No prob. Glad I could help. Also, if I'm not mistaken, the fuel tank breather valve in the diagram that Yeti made is actually to the left of the charcoal canister, in line on the fuel tank vent hose before it goes into the charcoal canister.
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Old 02-28-2011, 11:38 AM   #20
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There are actually three valves I think...
The one in the picture is a solenoid valve controlled by the computer.
The system is not passing air into the intake all of the time, but only on command from the computer (bike is warmed up, and ... not sure what else...?)

On the tank side is a tip-over valve and the pressure-vacuum valve, but I am not sure of how the hoses are routed to the valves on the tank side...
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Old 02-28-2011, 06:20 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by JRWooden View Post
There are actually three valves I think...
The one in the picture is a solenoid valve controlled by the computer.
The system is not passing air into the intake all of the time, but only on command from the computer (bike is warmed up, and ... not sure what else...?)

On the tank side is a tip-over valve and the pressure-vacuum valve, but I am not sure of how the hoses are routed to the valves on the tank side...
There is just a nipple coming out of the tank.... The "tip over valve" Must be inside the tank....... Cause the hose to the "pressure vacuum valve" as you called it, mounts right up to said nipple on the tank..... Then after the "pressure/vacuum valve....it runs down to the CC ( on the bike that still have`em)........Then back out on the top of the CC to the purge valve, which as you correctly stated is controlled by the ecm....

Erling
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Old 03-01-2011, 01:17 AM   #22
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Griz-
I think I'm sittin' pretty with the '11 post recall charcoal. I've had her peg-deep idling in a water filled rut while I waited for the convoy to get moving and suffered no ill effects.

I know I yanked it off the 1150gs to install the jesses and off the X to install the MSR.

It seems like it's out of the way and if it doesn't give me any flac it can save the planet.
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Old 03-01-2011, 07:50 PM   #23
JRWooden
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Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
There is just a nipple coming out of the tank.... The "tip over valve" Must be inside the tank....... Cause the hose to the "pressure vacuum valve" as you called it, mounts right up to said nipple on the tank..... Then after the "pressure/vacuum valve....it runs down to the CC ( on the bike that still have`em)........Then back out on the top of the CC to the purge valve, which as you correctly stated is controlled by the ecm....

Erling
Thanks - I have heard that the "tip over valve" is integrated into the filler neck assembly, so that all makes sense. In terms of the cracking gas tank issue: IF there is a correlation (I think there is) then the key is to remove the pressure-vacuum valve from the system.
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Old 03-01-2011, 07:53 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by jamesdemien View Post
Griz-
It seems like it's out of the way and if it doesn't give me any flac it can save the planet.
I'm 110% up for saving the planet!

Some of us conspiracy theorists think the pressure-vacuum check valve (yes I did come up with that catchy name for it on my own) in the canister "system" might be responsible for tanks cracking.....
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Old 03-01-2011, 08:13 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by JRWooden View Post
Thanks - I have heard that the "tip over valve" is integrated into the filler neck assembly, so that all makes sense. In terms of the cracking gas tank issue: IF there is a correlation (I think there is) then the key is to remove the pressure-vacuum valve from the system.
Bingo.......

Erling
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Old 03-02-2011, 09:30 AM   #26
YetiGS OP
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I'm going to do exactly that this weekend. I've noticed that, despite removing the charcoal canister, I still have a vacuum in the tank quite often.


I wonder if, rather than the canister/valve creating too much pressure in the tank, the canister/valve are creating a vacuum in the tank, effectively pulling the liner from the outer part of the tank, causing the cracks?



Has anyone ever found a diagram for the tank venting system BMW uses outside of the US??
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Old 03-02-2011, 09:34 AM   #27
The Griz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YetiGS View Post
I'm going to do exactly that this weekend. I've noticed that, despite removing the charcoal canister, I still have a vacuum in the tank quite often.


I wonder if, rather than the canister/valve creating too much pressure in the tank, the canister/valve are creating a vacuum in the tank, effectively pulling the liner from the outer part of the tank, causing the cracks?



Has anyone ever found a diagram for the tank venting system BMW uses outside of the US??
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Old 03-02-2011, 12:57 PM   #28
ebrabaek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YetiGS View Post
I'm going to do exactly that this weekend. I've noticed that, despite removing the charcoal canister, I still have a vacuum in the tank quite often.


I wonder if, rather than the canister/valve creating too much pressure in the tank, the canister/valve are creating a vacuum in the tank, effectively pulling the liner from the outer part of the tank, causing the cracks?



Has anyone ever found a diagram for the tank venting system BMW uses outside of the US??
I have not seen one..... But when I removed my CC....I found this little valve annoying. It vents quite fine inwards to the tank.... ( at least mine did)..... But it took about 5 psi for it to vent slowwwwwwwwlyyyy away from the tank..... Yet again.... If you applied a vacuum on the tank discharge side( against the arrow) it instantaneously opened up and vented away from the tank.....But if you just blew against the arrow......said 5 psi would purge it..... I have heard several people mention that that function is to prevent fuel from entering the CC..... I personally don`t think that valve is a necessity. I think it is plausible that if you constant have a vacuum in the tank......It could disfigure and subsequently crack the outer shell. My tank have never had any vacuum..... My tank have not has any cracking. Very hot desert sun.....and `09 with 6000 miles on it....

Erling
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Old 03-03-2011, 08:50 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by YetiGS View Post
I wonder if, rather than the canister/valve creating too much pressure in the tank, the canister/valve are creating a vacuum in the tank, effectively pulling the liner from the outer part of the tank, causing the cracks?
Here is the Euro bike parts diagram. I recently dropped my tank and the number 18 hose ran somewhere up front near the engine. I can take a closer look if it helps?

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Old 03-03-2011, 01:57 PM   #30
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Here is the Euro bike parts diagram. I recently dropped my tank and the number 18 hose ran somewhere up front near the engine. I can take a closer look if it helps?

Thanks Lukas!!

I found the part nos for parts 15 and 17 and then compared them to the parts on the US bikes. SAME PARTS.

17 is a Ventilation Valve 16 11 7 721 943

15 is a Connection Piece 61 66 1 382 908

The difference is that in the US hose 18 goes to the charcoal canister, while in Europe it goes . . .? Out the bottom of the bike I would presume.


Lukas, do you ever have a vacuum in your tank, when you open it air sucks in?
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