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Old 03-17-2011, 08:08 PM   #571
Babo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post

Thanks, I forgot to mention. I somehow thought it was obvious.

When the bike is moving, the sensor sees always the ambient air temperature.

No matter where the sensor is, it always gets ambient air temp. No matter if it's under the seat, behind the fuel tank panel, inside the airbox, or up in front of the steering head. It's all the same temp when the bike is moving.

Once the bike starts moving, the hot air that collects when stopped is immediately replaced by moving ambient air.



The sensor may see ambient air temps immediatly, but the ecu certainly dooes not. Have you had the opportunity to measure the AIT temp to ECU temp reading delay? Have you done this in hot weather at a stop light, or going over a mountain pass?

There are compelling reasons why your competitors are using external sensors.
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Old 03-17-2011, 08:24 PM   #572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Babo View Post

The sensor may see ambient air temps immediatly, but the ecu certainly dooes not.
What? The signal travels down the wire at the speed of light.

Have you had the opportunity to measure the AIT temp to ECU temp reading delay?
Yes mine's faster because the wire is shorter.

Have you done this in hot weather at a stop light, or going over a mountain pass?
Yes, that is how I measured ambient vs. IAT. While riding with a GS-911 hooked up to a laptop logging data.

There are compelling reasons why your competitors are using external sensors.
I get how compelling beliefs are...


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Old 03-17-2011, 08:43 PM   #573
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Originally Posted by Poolside View Post

I get how compelling beliefs are...


Why do you make light of my my questions? Are you afraid of dialog?
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Old 03-17-2011, 08:43 PM   #574
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Originally Posted by einnar View Post

Appreciate all the mental power you've put into this, and the commitment it takes to put your product out to the rest of us comparatively underpowered riders. (mentally that is, as I don't really follow everything you're doing...)

Here's a direct question for you... I have a 2009 R1200GS. I mostly do long distance touring, with some light offroad once I get where I'm headed. I don't thrash it, race it, etc. Is this still a product that will prove beneficial to me in the long run? How will it affect fuel economy? Will the "butt dyno" really notice right away?

Thanks.
You'll notice the greatest performance increase where you actually use the engine most.

You may twist the throttle a little more because it's more fun, so you might use a little more gas when doing that.

It won't change your mileage during cruise.


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Old 03-17-2011, 08:48 PM   #575
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Quote:
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Why do you make light of my my questions? Are you afraid of dialog?
That was dialog. The temperature difference thing is only a belief system. And I conducted tests to prove it, and that included proving it to myself since I was believing it too. Are you afraid of facts?



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Old 03-17-2011, 08:57 PM   #576
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Poolside...

It is apparent to me that the patience required to delve into this project may be exceeded by the patience required to put up with the "dialog" that has occurred here at times.

It's more patience than I have, and I have the patience of a Saint.

No matter what my wife says.

Good on you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post

That was dialog. The temperature difference thing is only a belief system. And I conducted tests. Are you afraid of facts?


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Old 03-17-2011, 09:01 PM   #577
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post

If it's under water, yes.



Hey JD, did you order one of these yet?

What if you're riding in a buttload of rain, and it's consistently wet?

And no, I haven't. Few other priorities above it on the "to buy" list.
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Old 03-17-2011, 09:38 PM   #578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post

That was dialog. The temperature difference thing is only a belief system. And I conducted tests to prove it, and that included proving it to myself since I was believing it too. Are you afraid of facts?


Is this the test you're referring to? In your garage?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
I have been waiting for that question "Does the location of the air temperature sensor make a difference?" The short answer is, no, it doesn't.

When the bike is moving, the sensor always sees the ambient air temperature.

It's easy to imagine that putting the sensor up near the steering head gives it a supply of cool air. Though just because it's easy to imagine doesn't make it true. I admit I wanted it to be true.

Seems like a reasonable question. I mean, seeing as how some of the competitor products have the sensor mounted up near the steering head/instrument cluster. Of course I had to find out.

It was a mild evening last August. The plan was to make a high speed run on the freeway, then take some temp measurements while the bike was idling. Ambient temperature was 70°F, and since it was evening there would be no influence from solar radiant heating.

I set up for the test and took off on a run up the 405 freeway from Long Beach to UCLA/Westwood. The 28 miles of freeway in 19 minutes, so the motor was good and warm.

I pulled off the fwy and quickly pulled into a waiting garage. The door was shut to eliminate any breeze, and the bike was left idling on the centerstand while we started logging measurements.

In preparation for the experiment, I had relocated the original Intake Air Temp sensor from the airbox to the area in front of the steering head.

First thing after pulling into the garage the bike is put on the centerstand, then pull off the saddle and connect to a waiting GS-911 and laptop to take temp readings. No cooling fan was used.

The setup process took no more than 30 seconds. The ambient temp in the garage was 70°F but already the IAT reading was 86°F. Remember, this was the ECU's reading from the relocated IAT sensor, mounted in front of the steering head.

The motor idled along happily with the headers turning red while the ECU gave these temp readings via the GS-911.

   IAT         OIL
   86.0    228.2
   87.8    230.0
   91.4    230.0
   93.2    231.8
   93.2    233.6
   95.0    235.4
   96.8    237.2
   98.6    239.0
   98.6    242.6
100.4    242.6
100.4    244.4
102.2    244.4
102.2    248.0
104.0    248.0
104.0    249.8
105.8    249.8
107.6    253.4


I shut it down at that point, figuring 250 degrees was hot enough for the oil.

So there it is. Ambient air temp was 70°, and after a few minutes the relocated sensor was reading 38 degrees higher at 107.6°

For comparison, I did this experiment 2 more times. Once with the IAT sensor in the factory location in the airbox. And once more with the sensor resting on top of the airbox, with the saddle in place.

Result: The ECU sees the same temperature regardless where the sensor is mounted.

Wait, that's not entirely true. With the sensor placed on a table 5 feet away, the ECU always reads the same intake temperature. (I actually did that with an extension wire on the sensor.)

Conclusions: No matter where you put the sensor, there's no way to escape the heat when you come to a stop.

And once the bike starts moving, the hot air that collects when stopped is immediately replaced by moving ambient air.

When the bike is moving, the sensor always sees the ambient air temperature.


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Old 03-17-2011, 09:48 PM   #579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by einnar View Post
Poolside,
snip
Here's a direct question for you... I have a 2009 R1200GS. I mostly do long distance touring, with some light offroad once I get where I'm headed. I don't thrash it, race it, etc. Is this still a product that will prove beneficial to me in the long run? How will it affect fuel economy? Will the "butt dyno" really notice right away?

Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
You'll notice the greatest performance increase where you actually use the engine most.

You may twist the throttle a little more because it's more fun, so you might use a little more gas when doing that.

It won't change your mileage during cruise.
Let me add a thought or two to this.
One way to look at what these modifications are doing is they will shift the way the fuel injection system operates DURING ACCELERATION. These mods change the EFI's response from its 'stock' efficiency mode to a power mode of operation.

And what I have observed when this is achieved is, the fuel economy can actually increase because you don't need to use as much throttle to get the same rate of acceleration.

This may seem counterintuitive but when the engine makes power as optimally as it is capable, then the overall efficiency ESPECIALLY DURING ACCELERATION is improved.

And it should be noted that most of the time when we are running down the road (ie. touring) in a steady state condition, (aka closed loop operation) and not accelerating nor decelerating to any great extent these mods will have no effect.

Now if you get overly enthusiastic with the go fast handle, then yes your mileage will be reduced, but that is true with or without these mods in place. Only with the mods, the fun factor is considerably enhanced.

As for the 'butt dyno' effect. Where you'll notice it is in the directness and immediacy of the response of the engine to throttle inputs. A good deal of vagueness and delay will be replaced with an immediate torque reaction from the engine.

JJ
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Old 03-17-2011, 09:54 PM   #580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Babo View Post
The sensor may see ambient air temps immediatly, but the ecu certainly dooes not. Have you had the opportunity to measure the AIT temp to ECU temp reading delay? Have you done this in hot weather at a stop light, or going over a mountain pass?

There are compelling reasons why your competitors are using external sensors.
Actually if anything, having that remote sensor probe encased in metal will slow down the response. What with the added mass of the metal that would need to be cooled down after getting hot while at a stop light. So I'm not sure if that is a benefit or a hindrance at least in terms of the immediacy of response to ambient temp changes.

JJ
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• The hidden harmony is found with joy, while the obvious brings indifference.
• The farther you enter into the Truth the deeper your conviction for truth must be.
• There is understanding of the world precisely to the degree that there is understanding of the Self.

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Collected Works of the WingMakers Volume 1 pg. 590
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Old 03-17-2011, 11:11 PM   #581
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Babo View Post

Is this the test you're referring to? In your garage?
Careful Babo, the planet is about to be eaten by a giant space goat!


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Old 03-17-2011, 11:53 PM   #582
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Babo View Post
Is this the test you're referring to? In your garage?
Is that another belief?

JJ
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• The farther you enter into the Truth the deeper your conviction for truth must be.
• There is understanding of the world precisely to the degree that there is understanding of the Self.

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Old 03-18-2011, 06:19 AM   #583
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Poolside and JJ,
I've read the entire thread, and I may have missed it, but does altitude have any effect on the operation of this device, i.e., enrichening/leaning the A/F ratio? I'm thinking about fouled plugs, but maybe I've been messing with my old Triumph too much.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:47 AM   #584
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Thanks guys!

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjen View Post
Let me add a thought or two to this.
One way to look at what these modifications are doing is they will shift the way the fuel injection system operates DURING ACCELERATION. These mods change the EFI's response from its 'stock' efficiency mode to a power mode of operation.

And what I have observed when this is achieved is, the fuel economy can actually increase because you don't need to use as much throttle to get the same rate of acceleration.

This may seem counterintuitive but when the engine makes power as optimally as it is capable, then the overall efficiency ESPECIALLY DURING ACCELERATION is improved.

And it should be noted that most of the time when we are running down the road (ie. touring) in a steady state condition, (aka closed loop operation) and not accelerating nor decelerating to any great extent these mods will have no effect.

Now if you get overly enthusiastic with the go fast handle, then yes your mileage will be reduced, but that is true with or without these mods in place. Only with the mods, the fun factor is considerably enhanced.

As for the 'butt dyno' effect. Where you'll notice it is in the directness and immediacy of the response of the engine to throttle inputs. A good deal of vagueness and delay will be replaced with an immediate torque reaction from the engine.

JJ
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Old 03-18-2011, 11:14 AM   #585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjen View Post
Actually if anything, having that remote sensor probe encased in metal will slow down the response. What with the added mass of the metal that would need to be cooled down after getting hot while at a stop light. So I'm not sure if that is a benefit or a hindrance at least in terms of the immediacy of response to ambient temp changes.

JJ
I'd much rather have remote sensor encased in thin metal than a sensor buried under plastics that is subject to the bikes radiant heat. A trade-off I'm sure, and perhaps inconsequential.

FWIW, I've tested the responsiveness of a remote sensor (boosterplug) with a GS911 and found that temp changes are almost instantaneous - certainly as quick as the AIT anyway.

Regardless, there are other reasons why some vendors use a sensor in addition to the stock AIT, and there are successful vendors that don't...does the IICE Air use one?
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