The All New 2013 LIQUID COOLED R1200GS threadfest

[mkletecka]

bracky 72:

I currently have an 09GS and would like, and appreciate a 2010/11, because of its improved engine. Also, I'm waiting to see what BMW does with the new, totally revised, "possible" water cooled, 1250/1300 etc. GS/GSA. However, my 09 is "so good", "so competent", that its virtually erased that need/urge to look for new.

Also, (one reporters opinion) over 30 years the GS/GSA has been properly improved/refined, to a point that "some" still prefer their 1100/1150's.

In the recent Fast Bike comparo between the new/latest Multistrada 1200S, Yamaha XT1200Z Super Tenere and 2011 GSA (which, I believe has "essentially" been around since 2005, but has the HP-2 derived heads), it came out on top. At the end of the article, they quote, "More telling still is that if you put the 09GS in the test instead, the outcome would have been the same".

Mike K.
Dana Point, CA.

[ag_streak]

A couple of observations...

Several folks said this picture looks like the existing model. While they COULD have put the new engine in an old chassis for testing purposes, I would be skeptical that some guy in Spain would know it and snap this cell-phone picture.

1. The exhaust pipes seem to come out the front of the cylinders just like the current 1200.
2. That could be some sort of cladding around the "dual side-mounted radiators", but I doubt it. I suspect that would be difficult on a test mule based on the current bike's bodywork, and this picture makes them look too integrated.
3. That sure as hell looks like a double-sided swingarm. Can you make out a horizontal swingarm in front of the axle nut?

Originally Posted by VeeNeck

[Basic_Gerd]

In this german magazine (Vol. March 2011) you can see excellent pictures of the new engine crankcase. Wonder how they got these. Extremely detailled, professional lighting.

• wet clutch - saves length
• therefore maybe longer rear swingarm possible?
• shaft left
• intake / outlet vertical.

[Ricardo Kuhn]

Originally Posted by Basic_Gerd

In this german magazine (Vol. March 2011) you can see excellent pictures of the new engine crankcase. Wonder how they got these. Extremely detailled, professional lighting.

• wet clutch - saves length
• therefore maybe longer rear swingarm possible?
• shaft left
• intake / outlet vertical.

So what are you waiting Gerd, Get does "Scans" pronto, Since we really need to know, Well want to know in my case, But people buying the "Latest and greatest" kind of need to wait a little longer for cheap prices in the "Obsolete" models

[OConnor]

Originally Posted by Basic_Gerd

• wet clutch - saves length
• therefore maybe longer rear swingarm possible?
• shaft left
• intake / outlet vertical.

How does a wet clutch save length?

[SQD8R]

Originally Posted by Dorian

IMO the venerable 1200(1300)GS is veering down the wrong path. Should this new info be true BMW is tuning it to a technological standstill. But they can't help it - they're BMW after all - it is what they do. Getting further and further away from what the GS was originally intended to be. I would love to have a new/current 1200GS but instead of continuing refinement of the current air-cooled boxer they seem to be caught up in a techno arms race with the looming competition in the market. Water cooling - okay if you have to. More power? How much does a GS need!?

By the time I can afford a "new" 12(1300)GS - it'll have to be a nice, used, underpowered, air-cooled 2010 model. Which is fine as I'm not keen on the direction BMW is taking the big GS. For now I'm loving my 1100GS more every day! But I'm obviously not the average 50-something male motorcyclist they're aiming at

At any rate, it will be fun to watch how it plays out for the next couple of model years.

Actually no it's not BMW forcing the change; it's emissions standards.

[SQD8R]

I'm really surprised by the number of luddites fearing the "great change" to water-cooling.

I'm assuming you've never heard of the KTM 640, 950, 990 models, KLR, DRZ, Vstrom, Varedero, Super Tenéré, Husqvarna, Aprilia, Highland or other venerable adventure bikes - all using liquid cooling for many moons without issue.

Those arguing that it will be a pain to fix ''in the field'' should check out the number of rallies notably THE Rallye and the number of manufacturers using liquid cooling. If CANBUS doesn't concern you - trying doing a field fix on that btw - then liquid cooling with a tube of liquid metal in your luggage shouldn't be an issue, hell it can be done with chewing gum.

KTM, arguably the GS's main competitor, suffered nothing by running liquid cooling on its 950 and 990, the wet weight is similar to the GS. Furthermore I can't believe anyone is arguing wet weight when considering a GS - the way most people pack those things the last thing to worry about is the weight of the rad system.

Will the liquid cooling system add weight, not significantly imo because BMW knowing many owner,s predeliction with weight will shave it elsewhere, wheels, engine internals etc. Back in the day when the GSXR went from air and oil cooling to liquid cooling ( and technically still air cooling) it was a significant weight gain but bottom line Suzuki got it very wrong in the first iteration and subsequently dropped its weight significantly after that. Notably however the added weight didn't hurt sales or on or off track performance significantly despite the significant weight gain. Since the GS isn't running in any horserace the weight gain will have negligible impact.

The move to liquid cooling will have appreciable benefits moreso for BMW in terms of addressing it's environmental responsibilities than for the consumer. Rest assured the new model will sport enhancements to lure many dissenters. Just as the 12GS lured many a 1100 and 1150 owner who said never. When the 12GS was introduced many declared it ''plasticky'' and ''less planted'' and in one memorable case ''supermotard-like'' in comparison to the battle-tank 1150GSA. Many of those are now proud 12GS(A) owners without complaint.

I'm confident many here will be putting deposits down in the future - there's a new flavour of kool-aid on the market.

[mcstark]

Originally Posted by SQD8R

Actually no it's not BMW forcing the change; it's emissions standards.

The same thing happened to Porsche in the early 90's. That's when they introduced the water-cooled flat-6. All the purists cringed, but now you have a 3.8 liter non-turbo motor making 450-hp. The old, air-cooled twin turbo motor made the same HP, but it wasn't nearly as efficient or clean.

Progress needs to happen. I do agree that an adventure bike doesn't need 115-hp. My 1150 is plenty fast for me, but more importantly it has the grunt down low to pull like the tractor it is.

[Luma46]

Not sure if anyone had a chance to read the latest edition of the book 'BMW Motorcycles' by Holstrom and Nelson, but you would learn that the first R boxer bike was the R32 introduced in 1923. Of course air cooled and it never changed since on the R boxer engines. I think it was in seventies when BMW wanted to drop them in favor of more modern and efficient K engines and guess what, loyal owners started screaming and the "inefficient" boxers were back and kept getting better.
Most of you for sure remember the HD bringing in 2002 the super modern V-Rod, which is pretty much ignored by the overwhelming majority of HD riders. Guess what would would happen if HD dropped the air cooled engines in favor of modern liquid cooled ....
Same thing with the R boxer engines, people love them the way they are, yes improve whatever can be improved, but do not touch the basic design including the air/oil cooling. Remember my words, if Germans come up with liquid cooling and shim under bucket and other "major improvements" lots of people will start screaming and thing will go back to "normal". Tradition, tradition...

[slowoldguy]

Same thing with the R boxer engines, people love them the way they are, yes improve whatever can be improved, but do not touch the basic design including the air/oil cooling. Remember my words, if Germans come up with liquid cooling and shim under bucket and other "major improvements" lots of people will start screaming and thing will go back to "normal". Tradition, tradition...

Can't we like both? I really like the steel bikes but own a plastic one. When the new one comes out, I'll be likely to buy it and if I have the cash, I'll buy a steel bike, too.


(And yeah. I'm a HD fan, too. And I have no interest in a V-Rod but mostly because that riding position was designed by an idiot.)

[OConnor]

Originally Posted by SQD8R

KTM, arguably the GS's main competitor, suffered nothing by running liquid cooling on its 950 and 990, the wet weight is similar to the GS. Furthermore I can't believe anyone is arguing wet weight when considering a GS - the way most people pack those things the last thing to worry about is the weight of the rad system.

Didn't KTM have water pump issues on the 950? That's what BMW needs is ANOTHER weak link. I'd be more worried about radiator damage than added weight. Crushed my DRZ radiator a few times.

[cug]

Originally Posted by slowoldguy

(And yeah. I'm a HD fan, too. And I have no interest in a V-Rod but mostly because that riding position was designed by an idiot.)

The way people look on them rather looks like it was designed not only by but for the aforementioned ...

[SQD8R]

Originally Posted by OConnor

Didn't KTM have water pump issues on the 950? That's what BMW needs is ANOTHER weak link. I'd be more worried about radiator damage than added weight. Crushed my DRZ radiator a few times.

Yes but is this a Q&A issue or a water-cooling issue? How many liquid cooled motorcycles have had water pump issues? Yes KTMs 950 is notable for it but KTM also has had outsourcing issues going back to the early 640ADV. Q&A is the issue not water-cooling.

The BMW has significantly more locations to place and protect the rad compared to the DRZ. I would think if you've crushed the BMW rad you've probably got more pressing concerns. Provided BMW place this in a secure area I don't see the risk increasing compared to where the oil cooler is today. Certainly compared to the placement of the early GS oil coolers low, and out in the open. My HP2 oil cooler is high and to the side. I have dropped it more than I can remember, over 30 times in one rallye, and never had an issue.

[SQD8R]

Originally Posted by mcstark

The same thing happened to Porsche in the early 90's. That's when they introduced the water-cooled flat-6. All the purists cringed, but now you have a 3.8 liter non-turbo motor making 450-hp. The old, air-cooled twin turbo motor made the same HP, but it wasn't nearly as efficient or clean.

Progress needs to happen. I do agree that an adventure bike doesn't need 115-hp. My 1150 is plenty fast for me, but more importantly it has the grunt down low to pull like the tractor it is.

It was laughable when people feared the Porsche change. It was as if people didn't believe it was possible to surpass their beloved model. I guess we'd all like to believe that considering the price point for entry.

In terms of outright performance I agree 100 bhp on the street is more than enough but as with the supersports and now it seems the sport-touring and adventure segments, minimal increases in bhp each generation are the minimum requirement.

[OConnor]

Originally Posted by SQD8R

Yes but is this a Q&A issue or a water-cooling issue? How many liquid cooled motorcycles have had water pump issues? Yes KTMs 950 is notable for it but KTM also has had outsourcing issues going back to the early 640ADV. Q&A is the issue not water-cooling.

Is the FD issue a QA or design issue?