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Old 03-27-2011, 07:10 PM   #211
slowoldguy
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Originally Posted by supershaft View Post
I'm still stuck on the water cooling. If a boxer twin isn't air cooled, there is no need to run one. So many engine layouts can do everything better IMO, except for air cooling.
Now, don't be getting all logical...and shit.
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Old 03-27-2011, 07:12 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Emoto View Post

Looks to me like the engine block includes the cylinders. I'm guessing this configuration results in lighter weight engine, but that is a guess. May also be cheaper to assemble.

I would rather have lighter weight than larger engine.
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Old 03-27-2011, 07:14 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Emoto View Post
You could be right, Ricardo. And, from an engineering standpoint, I suppose that not having to keep seals tight at joints between cylinders and blocks, is a plus for the idea, but who the hell wants to pull the motor and split the cases to re-ring or put in a new piston.
How often do you need to put in new pistons? Integrating the cylinders into the crankcase has been status quo with high performance inline fours for two decades.
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Old 03-27-2011, 09:45 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by kvr929rr View Post
You can't really tell if the cylinders are integral with the block from that picture. Having the cylinder not attached to the block is not an impediment to water cooling either. The CBR1000RR has separate crankcase and cylinder blocks. Having the cylinders stick out with a longitudnal crankshaft does have other advantages over other layouts such as packaging & handling
Packaging and handling? Have you checked out the competition??

I see the boxer having three big disadvantages. Width, port shape and a very long valve train times two not to mention all the trouble BMW has gone to to get a handle on crank case pressure.
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Old 03-27-2011, 09:53 PM   #215
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I'm sure that the future will be cool (water cooled boxer) and I can't wait to test ride one when they finally arrive.
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Old 03-27-2011, 10:25 PM   #216
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I'm sure that the future will be cool (water cooled boxer) and I can't wait to test ride one when they finally arrive.
Me too. What I like most is that I will dampen the sound of the engine. The rest - I don't care whether it is water or air cooled as long as I don't sit in traffic for too long.
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Old 03-28-2011, 05:01 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by bemiiten View Post
How often do you need to put in new pistons? Integrating the cylinders into the crankcase has been status quo with high performance inline fours for two decades.
Yes, I know it has. I was wrenching professionally in the 1980s when they started to make that change. Didn't like it then, don't like it now.

I've done plenty of piston and/or ring replacements and they become a whole lot harder when the cylinders are integral to the block. One may not need to do it often, but it didn't used to be so bad if you did; now it will be a full teardown of the motor and the cost of that will result in bikes being junked. IMHO.
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Old 03-28-2011, 07:54 AM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supershaft View Post
I'm still stuck on the water cooling. If a boxer twin isn't air cooled, there is no need to run one. So many engine layouts can do everything better IMO, except for air cooling.
Same was said when Porsche made the move, are we better or worse off today?

If the appeal of the boxer was how it is cooled perhaps you've really missed the point. I really don't see the issue with continuing the configuration since it is synonymous with BMW and highly successful. Also every type of motor configuration has moved from air to air - oil to air - liquid cooling and retained the same configuration, BMW has just been late to the game. Why should BMW change configurations? Certainly 100 bhp is enough to keep the configuration going and as with the HP2S there is certainly more bhp to be gained.
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Old 03-28-2011, 10:17 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by SQD8R View Post
Same was said when Porsche made the move, are we better or worse off today?

If the appeal of the boxer was how it is cooled perhaps you've really missed the point. I really don't see the issue with continuing the configuration since it is synonymous with BMW and highly successful. Also every type of motor configuration has moved from air to air - oil to air - liquid cooling and retained the same configuration, BMW has just been late to the game. Why should BMW change configurations? Certainly 100 bhp is enough to keep the configuration going and as with the HP2S there is certainly more bhp to be gained.
What other point is there? Low CG? Now we know that low CG isn't good on a bike. Centralized CG is. Are there any others?

Porsche? They were air cooled in a completely different way. Low CG in a car (or hack) IS a good thing!
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Old 03-28-2011, 10:32 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Ricardo Kuhn View Post
Yeah how do they do it....

I was wondering about that too, Do they install them when the cases are "Split", Man what a pain in the butt, Even more if you ever need to work on them and/or replace anything even a job as simple as the rings.
That's the only way one can do that...!
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Old 03-28-2011, 10:38 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by i_isntreal View Post
They probably have a removable oil pan. Kind of like a V8 where you have to put the piston on the connecting rod and drop it into the jug. Only it would be a bit more of a headache to get the top connecting rod bolt on/off. Nothing impossible, just a headache, and another specialty tool for the stealerships to sell.
Look at the pics - I can't see anything alike. No, just face it guys: you'll have to split the engine - take it out first - ... in fact, roll back the full factory assembling process, and then in reverse order ...

As has been said: this is what BMW is sure their clientship is alike.
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Old 03-28-2011, 03:18 PM   #222
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The comments about a shorter wheelbase got me wondering whether the Boxer platform might become more modular. So a GS or RT might use a long swing arm, whereas an S might lose a few inches from this.

I suspect that the air-cooled bikes will retain a following. The last of the air-cooled 911 (993) models are holding their value, and a 2010 / 2011 GS or HP2 Sport might be similar.

Personally, I'd be open to a Wasserboxer. Particularly if the threatened S model tips up.
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Old 03-28-2011, 04:36 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by supershaft View Post
I'm still stuck on the water cooling. If a boxer twin isn't air cooled, there is no need to run one. So many engine layouts can do everything better IMO, except for air cooling.
Here's the new 1200



Given the F8 sounds and feels almost identical to a boxer.
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Old 03-28-2011, 04:42 PM   #224
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it looks like the cylinder heads are there just not to clear, but I can see a joint between the engine case and the heads.
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Old 03-28-2011, 05:20 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emoto View Post
Thanks for the scans Emoto! Here are some observations of the new Waterhead.

Cam drive remains on the back side of the cylinders. The cam chain still looks like it's driven from an aux shaft below the crank.

Multiplate wet clutch is driven directly off the crank. In the top picture it's the uppermost round area on the back of the case.

The gearbox input shaft is gear driven from the front side of the clutch pack. This allows the gear shafts sit under the clutch pack, not behind it. That saves a lot of overall motor/gearbox length.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emoto View Post
I'm thinking that the plain bearing journal below the crank is for a gear-driven-from-the-crank, counter-rotating balance shaft.

There's quite a bit of room around that lower shaft area. Enough room for an Integrated Starter Alternator (ISA).

The hole up top looks like it might be for a crank-driven oil pump, given the direction of the nearby cast-in oil galleys, and the bore plugs.

But it also might be the impeller housing for the water pump. I can't tell if the flanking water ports connect to what may be the impeller area on the crank-driven water pump.


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