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Old 04-24-2011, 05:57 PM   #16
GreatWhiteNorth
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Great answer

Barry - well said! I at first couldn't understand why I had such a tough time finding pix of mounts for my GL1100... I mean, aside from maybe old airhead BMWs, in their day they were probably the most popular hack'd bike around! I had Side Effects in Kamloops fab me mounts... am almost reluctant to show pix now knowing how proprietary designs are!
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Old 04-24-2011, 06:15 PM   #17
RedMenace
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Hi Pam!
I am glad your R90 rig has worked well for you, but I still would not build one without a subframe. BMW airhead frames are flimsy and flexible compared to older /2 frames.

You are right, I have broken some KLR frames. I wouldn't recommend mounting a sidecar to a KLR without a subframe either. While I think my frame failures were probably due to extreme use and subframes that needed a bit more development, it did take longer than a month for me to break them(not sure where you got that). I don't have a high opinion of KLR build quality, but they are cheap enough to experiment with and fun to ride

I suspect the market for software may be different enough from niche manufacturing such as sidecar mounting to make your comparison questionable, but since I am not in either business I am just guessing and could easily be mistaken.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pampine View Post
OK, first, you don't run a software development business for 24 years by being naive about what people will try to steal; and in the case of one application, an accounting system, we shipped open access to the code. So what you do is protect your property rights. Also, you must assess the abilities of your buyers/stealers. I also published a magazine about a software system, not ours, for a couple of years; and no question, people stole it, even password protected. But we didn't answer questions posed by people not on our subscriber list. The fact is, the thieves weren't going to buy our rag at the price we were charging; but at least they couldn't sue us for bad advice.

Second, perhaps a year of use is too short to reveal frame problems; but fact is, my R90S with sidecar performed very well, no frame problems to date. That's a fact, whether it suits other experiences or not. Now clearly I'm thinking about this, giving technological advances their due; but I don't see how you can make all sorts of excuses for your KLR frame failures (Took what, a month to break?) and then claim the BMW /5/6/7 frames are weak. Compared to what? What effect does tub weight have on frames? How about mounting arrangement? Mounting components? Etc.? No, just a blanket statement that directly contradicts my personal experience.

I happen to have a lot of respect for what you do and how you do it, please keep up the good work.

Pam
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Old 04-26-2011, 09:41 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrowhawkdesign View Post
...

Again, just my opinion, but I think we would all gain a lot more from discussing our ideas and comparing the pro's and con's of whatever subject we are talking about than criticizing each other for not doing things our way.

Barry
Barry, I'm trying real hard to do just that.

I know that RedMenace's KLR rigs take a lot of heat; and I wasn't being absolutely critical of his rigs, only relatively in the context of criticizing my BMW rig. Or, more to the point, of seemingly disregarding completely my experience with said rig. See, polite discourse at least allows for the possibility that my rig was a very good one.

Also, I said that it was possible that your "subframe" for old BMWs might be exactly what they needed if their frames failed, and not the $2,000+ overkill that I see here day after day. I readily admit that the new, almost frameless BMWs, need such "overkill." And the fact that I reiterated someone else's request for better photos meant that I was considering DMC's solution if/when I hang another sidecar on my ancient Beemer. About the last thing I'd want to do is endanger life and limb by trying to build something myself, plus I don't much like working metal.

All that other stuff just got in the way; so I was trying to tell you how I got it out of the way for my business. And now I'm really irritated that I apparently find it necessary to explain myself.

Pam
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Old 04-26-2011, 10:42 AM   #19
lemieuxmc
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Fooling around with sidecars is so small a niche that I would guess 90% of rigs are put together by some local guy with a welder and a few pictures.

The gas cost and hours spent driving my truck and parts up to the nearest real sidecar shop is greater than the total cost and time I have in building the bracketry myself.

To me, putting together myself is a major part of the attraction. My next build will be a Harley with a "Woody" hack. It's just a matter of time and $.
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Old 04-28-2011, 09:57 AM   #20
MotoJ OP
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Thanks for all the replies!

Amidst some of the uptighted-ness I gleaned enough useful info to decide that I will go the subframe route. Underway, in fact. It will be home-made.

I think the thread got off-topic from my initial question about whether Perry's was a good source for mounts, but it sure was a spirited read!

Thanks folks!
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Old 04-28-2011, 12:52 PM   #21
RedMenace
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I should clarify my previous statements:
I originally responded to the query regarding Perry's mounts for an airhead BMW. My first hand experience was not encouraging. On the other hand, Perry has been mounting sidecars longer than I have and he has many satisfied customers. We mounted this hack maybe 15 years ago and I don't know if it is the same as what he is using now.

My remarks about BMW frames were based upon both personal experience and the widely held reputation BMWs of that era have for being flexible and for frame failure. BMW manuals for these bikes specifically state the frames are lighter than the earlier /2 and are not adequate for sidecar use. You do not need to look far to find anecdotal evidence to support that position. I believe this weakness can be addressed with a proper subframe. That is my opinion, not necessarily fact.

Pam I was speaking about my experience with Mike's bike, not your experience with your bike. There are lots of variables and it is not surprising experiences and opinions will differ. I don't know how you mounted your sidecar or where the attachment points are. I am very happy to hear that it is working well for you. In my opinion the R90 is one of the few really pretty bikes BMW has built. Some would consider it collectible. If it were mine I would not risk damaging the frame with clamps or by welding on it. It is possible to bolt mounts to an airhead without a subframe, but even this I would be reluctant to do. A subframe allows you to better position the bottom mounts and re enforce the bike frame fore and aft and from side to side.

Depending on the use, among other things, a year may not be enough time for damage to become evident. My KLRs broke after several seasons hard use which include classes on bumpy ground, dualsport rallies, a few tipovers and daily commuting. I discovered the damage after jumps with a passenger aboard and some high speed washboard. . I really think though, that the damage was cumulative. Even if you only ride on the street a substandard mount will eventually result in damage or failure. In my opinion.

But please understand me! I am not calling your rig substandard, nor am I saying Perry's mounts are no good. I'd have to have them in front of me. Besides, I am not an engineer. I am just a guy who has messed around with a few of these things. What I have posted are just opinions and worth no more than what you paid for them :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pampine View Post
Barry, I'm trying real hard to do just that.

I know that RedMenace's KLR rigs take a lot of heat; and I wasn't being absolutely critical of his rigs, only relatively in the context of criticizing my BMW rig. Or, more to the point, of seemingly disregarding completely my experience with said rig. See, polite discourse at least allows for the possibility that my rig was a very good one.

Also, I said that it was possible that your "subframe" for old BMWs might be exactly what they needed if their frames failed, and not the $2,000+ overkill that I see here day after day. I readily admit that the new, almost frameless BMWs, need such "overkill." And the fact that I reiterated someone else's request for better photos meant that I was considering DMC's solution if/when I hang another sidecar on my ancient Beemer. About the last thing I'd want to do is endanger life and limb by trying to build something myself, plus I don't much like working metal.

All that other stuff just got in the way; so I was trying to tell you how I got it out of the way for my business. And now I'm really irritated that I apparently find it necessary to explain myself.

Pam
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Old 04-28-2011, 07:27 PM   #22
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some pix of the re enforced racing frames I mentioned:



http://www.rockerboxer.com/frame_1.html



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Old 04-29-2011, 02:35 PM   #23
pampine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedMenace View Post
...In my opinion the R90 is one of the few really pretty bikes BMW has built. Some would consider it collectible. If it were mine I would not risk damaging the frame with clamps or by welding on it. ...
This is what I've been thinking, too, have even seen a few listing for north of $12,000. I'm thinking of selling the R90S and perhaps buying a GS of some sort, most likely airhead or pre-2000 oiler for rigging. Sure do like the looks of the rig Jay rode to your party, though.

Pam
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Old 05-01-2011, 04:04 AM   #24
vortexau
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In the late sixties I inspected brand new BMW models in the showroom of the Qld distributor; Morgan and Wackers. I took home some of the glossy brochures on them- black (or white) R50, R60, & R69. BMW was experimenting with bar-end flashing indicators in that period. These models have quite substantial frames, and even sported ball-shaped sidecar mounts on the Right-hand side (Unfortunately, for Oz).

Its even possible (don't quite remember) that the brochure showed a sidecar, or two.

✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖

Fast-forward to 1969. I looked over the new /5 models; R50/5, R60/5, and R75/5. Took home a thick BMW booklet that "Premiered" the slash 5s. Quite prominent inside, BMW announced that the new frame design meant that owners would have to forgo their use with a sidecar.



In 1971 I had my first BMW; a R50/5 with electric start. This was an extra cost option on the 500cc.

During the years 1974-1985 I was a member of the QLD BMW riders club. Legendary were the occurrences of broken sub-frames, and these mishaps were mainly on solos.

If someone wanted to build-up an outfit, they either used a complete pre-'69 model, or at least shoe-horned the /5, /6 motor into one.

(NB. My current, and first, outfit is my 4th BMW; from R25 to R100RS.)

✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖

From 1973 I owned a Moto Guzzi 850T with the 'Telaio Rosso'-shape frame. This is how to build a strong frame . . . . . not what BMW did with their twin-loop plus bolt on.


Moto Guzzi V7 Sport, with the 'Telaio Rosso' legendary robust build. The 850T shared this frame style.



Two-piece motorcycle frame which can barely cope as a solo.


If I had the money, my R100RS engine would be mounted in a /2-type frame, or even a CJ.
I once rode it around the major holes on a road closed to ordinary traffic. The Ural tub & frame came through unscathed, but . . . . . welds broke at the front of the downtubes, & the upper triple fork plate came close to breaking away on the centre hole.

After that;
● Some welding.
● A set of Perry's reduced trail T-clamps (which are beefier than stock).
● Addition of a cross-brace bridging upper rear-frame connection bolts, which makes battery access more difficult. I'm in the process of changing over to an external (to bike) automobile battery.
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Old 05-02-2011, 12:10 PM   #25
pampine
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Sure hope the electric start on your 50/5 worked a lot better than on my '71 60/5, which never saw a cold morning it would start on; but it was so much better than the Honda 350 that I didn't mind kick starting much. That already well used 60/5 made it all around North America in '76-77, including half way down Mexico, and back to the east coast, with a lot of very bad roads between (the Mexicans used to prepare back roads by dropping huge gravel in the road bed and letting the drivers crunch it). I fell in love with Beemers on that year+ long trip.

However, I appreciate what you're saying. I've never had frame problems, even with the sidecar on the '76 R90S, but am not so stupid to assume it means anything, necessarily, except possibly that I was lucky and/or much easier on my bikes than others. Who knows.

Pam

Quote:
Originally Posted by vortexau View Post
...In 1971 I had my first BMW; a R50/5 with electric start. This was an extra cost option on the 500cc.

During the years 1974-1985 I was a member of the QLD BMW riders club. Legendary were the occurrences of broken sub-frames, and these mishaps were mainly on solos.

If someone wanted to build-up an outfit, they either used a complete pre-'69 model, or at least shoe-horned the /5, /6 motor into one.

(NB. My current, and first, outfit is my 4th BMW; from R25 to R100RS.)

✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖ ✖

From 1973 I owned a Moto Guzzi 850T with the 'Telaio Rosso'-shape frame. This is how to build a strong frame . . . . . not what BMW did with their twin-loop plus bolt on.

If I had the money, my R100RS engine would be mounted in a /2-type frame, or even a CJ.
I once rode it around the major holes on a road closed to ordinary traffic. The Ural tub & frame came through unscathed, but . . . . . welds broke at the front of the downtubes, & the upper triple fork plate came close to breaking away on the centre hole.

After that;
● Some welding.
● A set of Perry's reduced trail T-clamps (which are beefier than stock).
● Addition of a cross-brace bridging upper rear-frame connection bolts, which makes battery access more difficult. I'm in the process of changing over to an external (to bike) automobile battery.
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Old 08-31-2013, 09:14 AM   #26
Ace_Cafe_Rat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoJ View Post
Hi Folks,

I've been searching the net for parts/methods in my endeavor to hang a Dnepr on my '78 R80/7. I came across Perry's Sidecars in Ft. Worth, TX.
I called him about modded triple trees, but he told me he sells an entire mounting kit including the trees for a very reasonable price. He sounded like a very knowledgeable gent and a nice guy to boot.

I asked about a subframe and he was very adamant that his system does away for the need for one. That's contrary to everything I've heard elsewhere. He tried to explain it to me, but I can't quite envision it and he doesn't have detail pics on his site.

Has anyone out there used Perry's kit to hang a chair on their /6 or /7 airhead? Is it stiff enough with no subframe? How was the rest of it- triple trees, etc?

I'd rather fork over the dough to Mr. Perry than be cutting up and welding mill steel in my basement, not to mention engineering it all from scratch.

Any comments are appreciated. Photos of a Perry system would be great!

Jim
Hi Jim,

Perry built a rig for me in 2008 using my 1977 R100/7 and a Ural sidecar he obtained for me. It was a down-to-the-nuts-n-bolts rebuild and the resulting rig was a work of art in both form and function. Go with his triple trees for sure they work as advertised.

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Old 09-01-2013, 06:58 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace_Cafe_Rat View Post
Hi Jim,

Perry built a rig for me in 2008 using my 1977 R100/7 and a Ural sidecar he obtained for me. It was a down-to-the-nuts-n-bolts rebuild and the resulting rig was a work of art in both form and function. Go with his triple trees for sure they work as advertised.

Ace Cafe Rat
Thanks Rat. My original post was in 2011. I ultimately went another route, but if I build another airhead rig I will probably go with Perry's trees.
Post up some pics of your rig!

Can I take it from your sig that you're also a Royal Enfield iron barrel rider?
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:37 AM   #28
GearHeadGrrrl
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Flex can be a good thing...

Watch the frame of a big truck going over a really bumpy road... It flexes! In fact, it's intended to flex, and if didn't it'd rapidly crack and be torn apart. Now let's apply this to airheads... If you brace and reinforce the frame of an airhead, it gets much more "buzzy" as it's transmitting engine vibration rather than absorbing it. That begs the question: Was the airhead frame intentionally designed to flex? Probably, especially given that it was designed by a Brit who had previously worked for Triumph/BSA. British and Continental steel tube manufacturers have always made frame tubing in various guages, etc. so bicycle frame builders could mix and match them to get the best combination or rigidity and suppleness, and those same manufacturers supplied the motorcycle industry too.

Thus I suspect the airhead frame and a lot of other bike's were purposely designed to flex somewhat. One notes this by the change in resonant RPMs in an airhead fitted with a sidecar subframe, even without a sidecar mounted. Thus the subframes we're fitting in fact may or not be strengthening the outfit, and multiply the number of subframes times the possible locations of mounts and sidecars to be mounted and we'd need supercomputers to figure it all out.

Perhaps that why some outfits get by fine without subframes, and some break frame bits even with subframes?
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