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Old 05-03-2011, 02:30 PM   #796
forest
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Thanks. Wow the FIM / FIA actually explained something concisely in the rule book! I didnt think it was possible. Huh, same number of workers just instead of fueling they are working the control. I think I will leave off the bit about the competitor being responsible for fueling 15 min to drink and eat sounds nice. We already carry time cards they just don't get used for much.
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Old 05-05-2011, 05:57 AM   #797
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So, JMo, Beano et al, have you watched the full video of the 450RR desert playing in Dubai? I think all the "stills" that have been dragged through the "fake!" and "photo-shopped!" claims are available by freezing the full video at the relevant points. The cactus that has been claimed as not existing in the Dubai desert is clear in the video. The 450RR flying above the dirt bike is clear. The full jump from dune to dune, ie without a "ramp", is clear. It's entirely possible that the riders have swapped bikes, but the jumps look pretty real to me and lose nothing in their spectacular-nous just because "maybe" the riders weren't actually the ones we are led to believe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sixrq...re=uploademail

It's sad when "reality" can be so incredible that we discredit it as technology playing with us and thereby miss out on something special. I remember seeing (photo-shopped) pictures of dirt bikes flying upside-down many years ago ... and then Travis did the back-flip!

Is the video a fake? Is that why it took so long to appear, it took a long time to piece it together with "video-shop"?
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Old 05-05-2011, 06:07 AM   #798
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Heheee, nice video! There's no doubt a professional rider at Marc Coma/Cyril Despres level can do big jumps, but I was also sceptical about him doing true freestyle jumps by just oogling the pictures. The video shows things in better perspective - the jumps were done at relatively moderate heights.

Reckon it took a few practice jumps under the FMX-dude's scrutiny, but quite frankly those pictures looked too polished and idealistic to be real for me too. It was simply too much out of a rally rider's character to do those stunts. As Coma said they like to keep the wheels as much as possible in ground contact to maintain speed. But, hey; this was freestyling - a different animal altogether.

I'd like more videos like that, please! Excellent stuff!
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Old 05-05-2011, 07:14 AM   #799
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBo1 View Post
So, JMo, Beano et al, have you watched the full video of the 450RR desert playing in Dubai? I think all the "stills" that have been dragged through the "fake!" and "photo-shopped!" claims are available by freezing the full video at the relevant points. The cactus that has been claimed as not existing in the Dubai desert is clear in the video. The 450RR flying above the dirt bike is clear. The full jump from dune to dune, ie without a "ramp", is clear. It's entirely possible that the riders have swapped bikes, but the jumps look pretty real to me and lose nothing in their spectacular-nous just because "maybe" the riders weren't actually the ones we are led to believe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sixrq...re=uploademail

It's sad when "reality" can be so incredible that we discredit it as technology playing with us and thereby miss out on something special. I remember seeing (photo-shopped) pictures of dirt bikes flying upside-down many years ago ... and then Travis did the back-flip!

Is the video a fake? Is that why it took so long to appear, it took a long time to piece it together with "video-shop"?
Nice find JayBo!

Jimmy's logo in the upper right of this picture is based on a photo of him jumping his R900RR practice bike at the finish line table-top at Glen Helen Raceway in San Bernadino, CA.


I've been looking on the internet and through my archive CDs for the photo but I can't find it. I think I have it somewhere though. My point is that racers at Lewis' and Coma's level can do insane things even on rally bikes.

I was able to find a couple of photos of big jumps but nothing like the "no footer" at Glen Helen or Coma/Renner's jumps.


bivouac somewhere in 2000 Dakar


Not sure where but that looks like the next gen R900RR.




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Old 05-05-2011, 07:20 AM   #800
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBo1 View Post
So, JMo, Beano et al, have you watched the full video of the 450RR desert playing in Dubai? I think all the "stills" that have been dragged through the "fake!" and "photo-shopped!" claims are available by freezing the full video at the relevant points. The cactus that has been claimed as not existing in the Dubai desert is clear in the video. The 450RR flying above the dirt bike is clear. The full jump from dune to dune, ie without a "ramp", is clear. It's entirely possible that the riders have swapped bikes, but the jumps look pretty real to me and lose nothing in their spectacular-nous just because "maybe" the riders weren't actually the ones we are led to believe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sixrq...re=uploademail

It's sad when "reality" can be so incredible that we discredit it as technology playing with us and thereby miss out on something special. I remember seeing (photo-shopped) pictures of dirt bikes flying upside-down many years ago ... and then Travis did the back-flip!

Is the video a fake? Is that why it took so long to appear, it took a long time to piece it together with "video-shop"?
I watched the original video (which didn't show those particular jumps) but have to admit the version in the link above does have the scenes that the stills seem to be taken from (albeit from a slightly different perspective as I imagine it was a different [stills] photographer) - I also had an email from a chap who owns the copyright who said they weren't faked...

Personally I never doubted that Marc Coma couldn't jump a bike like that (although I have to say the flick-flack is not his style), rather the images looked manipulated, and indeed some of the perspectives looked wrong - but that could have just been the angle they were taken from...

I'm prepared to concede they are legitimate, even if ironically they look like they were fabricated!

Jx
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Old 05-05-2011, 09:07 AM   #801
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The full version and the verdict is - Fake - it is all AfterEffects and Final Cut
Blue screens and giant budgets. KTM really flounder their advertising cash.










just kidding


Notice how Faria didn't push his luck wonder if Cyril would have done differently.
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Old 05-05-2011, 02:39 PM   #802
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G'day all,

Even after watching the video multiple times, I still don't believe the jump at 3:46 is actually Coma. KTM spend lots of money on makebelieve advertising.
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Old 05-05-2011, 02:47 PM   #803
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I believe that must be Ronny Renner in Marc Coma apparel doing the stunts on a 450RR. Nice publicity ploy, but still a fake. Coma didn't appear THAT comfortable on moderate height jumps, so they simply put some Coma apparel on Renner and let him fly that 450 through the dunes. I may be wrong, but that FMX body language belongs more to Renner than Coma.

Nice one, KTM!
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F650Dakar_Norway screwed with this post 05-05-2011 at 03:33 PM
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Old 05-05-2011, 03:36 PM   #804
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Oh by the way

Two rallies in progress right now.
Oilybia Rally Tunisia:
http://wp.npo.fr/rallyetunisie/
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=664848

NORRA Mexican 1000:
http://www.norra.com/mexican1000.php
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...=683524&page=2
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=617607
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Old 05-06-2011, 12:54 AM   #805
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A digital roadbook...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Safariaddict
I was just wondering the other day after getting back from condo and thinking about a question my girlfriend asked me whilst she was helping me wind my maps into the MD for day 2, Is there a better way to do the maps instead of using paper scrolls, ie a digitial display.
Not sure if anyone has brought this idea up or I'm just dreaming.
Wouldn't it be great if you just turned up and downloaded the days route instructions into your display and away you go, and it was syncronized with the ICO so the next instruction flashed up as the kays tick by. ?


The DAKAR (then TSO) had a far more detailed GPS route in years past (mid 90's to early 2000's) and the "compass" arrow pretty much did the job of showing the direction of the entire course (actually, at the time, CITRÖEN and MITSUBISHI had systems that they could "download" the route info into their own nav computers - similar to that which you describe - but these were banned, as only the factory teams had access to it and it was a BIG advantage).

The GPS did not however detail things like cautions and speed zones etc. (basically it was just an electronic compass) and the result was that a lot of bike riders paid more attention to following the electronic arrow, and NOT keeping an eye on the roadbook, speeds cosequently rose, and as the pace went up... so did occurrence of big accidents happened... and so the move (back to a less is more GPS navigation) back to making the roadbook the primary source of nav info, wast taken (to the system used in place today).

What you are talking about is digitally replicating the paper instructions (incl. cautions, turns, speed control zones etc.) as an electronic "roadbook". Coupling this to the trip meter (or via the GPS... would be even more accurate/simple) is entirely possible with todays technology (GPS,SPOT,IRRITRAC etc.), but by combining (and simplifying) the need to keep updating the maps roller and "bumping" (correcting) the ICO/trip to correlate with the routechart.

The system you describe is quite possible to create... what the cost, and what effect it would have on simplifying "navigation" (ie. make it easier/raise the speed averages on the course)... well that is another question.

It sure would make it simpler to navigate... that in turn would make it "faster" as well... on the other side... with less things to keep in the top of mind (calibrating the trip, rolling on the maps) while on "the fly", then perhaps the rider can concentrate more on the riding/terrain and yhis would REDUCE accidents (even if the pace went up slightly?). Interesting option for the future maybe... any electronic geeks want to give it a shot?
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Old 05-06-2011, 01:25 AM   #806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by escuchamente View Post
Two rallies in progress right now.
Oilybia Rally Tunisia:
http://wp.npo.fr/rallyetunisie/
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=664848
Yes, I've been getting the daily updates from this one - seems that Chaleco Lopez had a bad crash a couple of days ago...

"First rider to pass the finish line in the fourth stage of the Oilibya Rally of Tunisia, is the young Polish Jakub Przygonski (KTM 450 No 15), leaving in pole position this morning, he was quite upset upon arrival. He was in the wake of Francisco Lopez (Aprilia 450 No 1) and he saw the Chilean fall heavily. Within moments, he triggered the alarm, Portugal's Helder Rodrigues (Yamaha 450 No. 3), then the Spaniard Jordi Viladoms (Yamaha 450 No 4) arrived at the scene, the Polish prodigy then got back on his bike in order to inform the arrival station, while the other two riders remained with “Chaleco” pending the arrival of the medical helicopter. In these circumstances it seems clear that the sporting interest of the 4th stage passes quickly into the background ... very quickly transported by helicopter to the medical unit of the bivouac, the Chilean pilot, conscious but suffering from a fractured leg and hand, and a thoracic trauma was immediately transferred by helicopter to a hospital in Djerba La Douce for further tests..."

Jx
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Old 05-06-2011, 01:37 AM   #807
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troy safari carpente View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Safariaddict
I was just wondering the other day after getting back from condo and thinking about a question my girlfriend asked me whilst she was helping me wind my maps into the MD for day 2, Is there a better way to do the maps instead of using paper scrolls, ie a digitial display.
Not sure if anyone has brought this idea up or I'm just dreaming.
Wouldn't it be great if you just turned up and downloaded the days route instructions into your display and away you go, and it was syncronized with the ICO so the next instruction flashed up as the kays tick by. ?


The DAKAR (then TSO) had a far more detailed GPS route in years past (mid 90's to early 2000's) and the "compass" arrow pretty much did the job of showing the direction of the entire course (actually, at the time, CITRÖEN and MITSUBISHI had systems that they could "download" the route info into their own nav computers - similar to that which you describe - but these were banned, as only the factory teams had access to it and it was a BIG advantage).

The GPS did not however detail things like cautions and speed zones etc. (basically it was just an electronic compass) and the result was that a lot of bike riders paid more attention to following the electronic arrow, and NOT keeping an eye on the roadbook, speeds cosequently rose, and as the pace went up... so did occurrence of big accidents happened... and so the move (back to a less is more GPS navigation) back to making the roadbook the primary source of nav info, wast taken (to the system used in place today).

What you are talking about is digitally replicating the paper instructions (incl. cautions, turns, speed control zones etc.) as an electronic "roadbook". Coupling this to the trip meter (or via the GPS... would be even more accurate/simple) is entirely possible with todays technology (GPS,SPOT,IRRITRAC etc.), but by combining (and simplifying) the need to keep updating the maps roller and "bumping" (correcting) the ICO/trip to correlate with the routechart.

The system you describe is quite possible to create... what the cost, and what effect it would have on simplifying "navigation" (ie. make it easier/raise the speed averages on the course)... well that is another question.

It sure would make it simpler to navigate... that in turn would make it "faster" as well... on the other side... with less things to keep in the top of mind (calibrating the trip, rolling on the maps) while on "the fly", then perhaps the rider can concentrate more on the riding/terrain and yhis would REDUCE accidents (even if the pace went up slightly?). Interesting option for the future maybe... any electronic geeks want to give it a shot?
Following on from what Troy has said, the main reason the roadbook is still on paper is that it is a great leveler - it is the same for everyone - if the data was digital, then it could be manipulated in different ways using different devices, whether approved by the organization or not?

For example, if it was a download, the support teams could also utilise it, scan the whole roadbook very quickly, map it out on a screen, look for short-cuts etc etc. I'm not saying anyone would cheat, just use it to their 'advantage' ahem.

Fundamentally though, a paper roll is a failsafe - if the motor/power packs up, you can at least wind it forward manually.

Also, it is very easy to make adjustments to the info with a pen and scissors - not just at the briefing the night before, but also during the day itself mid-stage for example, where the route may have to be amended due to an accident or washed out river for example?

As for linking it to the ICO and GPS - a fundamental part of a rally is the navigation, and the pilot's ability to process and manipulate the data they receive from the different instruments (it's not just about who is fastest over the ground!) - getting the nav gear to do it for you takes away that fundamental element?

However, regarding the auto-correct or 'bump' facility Troy suggests - if you use the new generation Speedocap display (combined speed/trip/compass heading) in conjunction with the organization's GPS, then the trip element of the Speedocap does reset itself to what it 'should' be, every time you pass a waypoint in the GPS' memory.

As long as you don't go wrong from the roadbook (and thus need to reset manually back and forth on the fly), it is a very accurate trip meter - so much so that Si Pavey did bother with a regular ICO this year in the Dakar (although he did have a Trail Tech Vapor fitted as a back up), and simply relied on the trip data from the Speedocap...

Jx
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Old 05-06-2011, 05:25 AM   #808
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Volkswagen is out!

http://www.rallymaniacs.nl/index.php...012&Itemid=101

Chances again for the 'normal' guys???
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Old 05-06-2011, 05:54 AM   #809
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the terrain looks fun for someone at my level, it's on my radar for one to try
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Old 05-06-2011, 10:45 AM   #810
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troy safari carpente View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Safariaddict
Is there a better way to do the maps instead of using paper scrolls, ie a digitial display.

... any electronic geeks want to give it a shot?
The Tripy is a fully electronic roadbook device (www.tripy.eu). They've used it in the assistance vehicles in Dakar.


I'm working on a device that will provide some interesting related features, though it's not exactly an electronic roadbook as you described. This is not just for rally racing, but for other forms of racing as well, particularly USA & Mexico desert racing. For motos, there will be no screen (keeps cost, size, and complexity down and reliability up). It will be roughly the size of a common handheld GPS unit. Here are a few things I'd like include, though certain features would likely be disabled depending on the type of race:
- Audio course notes (i.e. roadbook in your ear). This could reduce or eliminate the need to look down at odometer, roadbook, roll chart, gps, speedometer, heading repeater, etc.
- Smart automatic pass alert (super intelligent Sentlnel type function without the need form manual triggering), great for dusty conditions and for those times when unfriendly car drivers pass motos.
- Near speed limit and over speed limit alerts (with internal recording of violations).
- Off course alert.
- Hard impact detection and auto alert to race officials and all nearby race vehicles.
- GPS recorder, stores GPS track so officials can check after the race for course cutting.
- Nearby vehicle tracking (like a radar with maybe 1km radius), recorded every 1 second in your unit. This is for later slow-motion or accelerated playback over a map background on your home computer, after the race, to see where you were and how you moved relative to others around you.
- Live tracking on the internet (similar to Irltrack or SPOT), updated every few minutes.
- For smaller "loop" races (typical USA 100mi to 300mi desert or enduro race), live trackside tracking with 1 second updates. Utilizes a separate device for crew, spectators, and officials, with color display screen and map or terrain background, to "watch" the race via live 1 second tracking, showing dots moving on the screen as the vehicles move on the race course.
- Runs on internal battery for 1-day event, or 48 hrs with small attached aux battery, or unlimited time with attached 12V vehicle supply. This allows non-rally bikes (those without 12V battery) to use it for shorter events, and rally bikes to use it for longer events.
- Heading repeater NMEA output, for Tony!
- Additional features and attachments for cars, since they don't have the tight space and weight concerns that motos have.

The idea here is to combine useful features currently available on multiple existing units, and add valuable features never before available, into a single small lightweight rugged device that would be practical for mounting on motos or cars. I'm open to new ideas and suggestions!
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