The Bivouac

[ArthDuro]

Originally Posted by HogWild

The idea here is to combine useful features currently available on multiple existing units, and add valuable features never before available, into a single small lightweight rugged device that would be practical for mounting on motos or cars. I'm open to new ideas and suggestions!

There are some super smart ideas there. A super powerful Tripy +++
What I have to say is that I always thought Digital Road books were a good idea. Yes the data in digital format is fragile and needs to be protected and yaddy yadda but there are ways of dealing with that, just the right thought process needs to be applied.

Paper books for road book purists, it is all ok, but you and I both have printed them and know the challenges for a regular guy to produce and distribute them and also know the benefits a rally driver has when the co-driver is reading notes. (I think having a screen to review notes when lost is a good idea, even if not reading visually on the fly)

I always thought that since we have all sorts of electro trickery time was right for some serious development on this end especially with all the devices around now that have pushed screen and processor tech to new heights. Then I saw tripy and its cool but could be even cooler.
I like your thinking and I am others would.
We need more out of the box thinking everywhere.


Just saying, my 2 cents are not worth a whole lot.

[skibum69]

That looks like a tall order but I can see where it would be really nice for a lot of things, and obviously I'm nowhere near the electronics geek you two are

[Bluebull2007]

Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet)

Following on from what Troy has said, the main reason the roadbook is still on paper is that it is a great leveler - it is the same for everyone - if the data was digital, then it could be manipulated in different ways using different devices, whether approved by the organization or not?

For example, if it was a download, the support teams could also utilise it, scan the whole roadbook very quickly, map it out on a screen, look for short-cuts etc etc. I'm not saying anyone would cheat, just use it to their 'advantage' ahem.

Fundamentally though, a paper roll is a failsafe - if the motor/power packs up, you can at least wind it forward manually.

Also, it is very easy to make adjustments to the info with a pen and scissors - not just at the briefing the night before, but also during the day itself mid-stage for example, where the route may have to be amended due to an accident or washed out river for example?

As for linking it to the ICO and GPS - a fundamental part of a rally is the navigation, and the pilot's ability to process and manipulate the data they receive from the different instruments (it's not just about who is fastest over the ground!) - getting the nav gear to do it for you takes away that fundamental element?

However, regarding the auto-correct or 'bump' facility Troy suggests - if you use the new generation Speedocap display (combined speed/trip/compass heading) in conjunction with the organization's GPS, then the trip element of the Speedocap does reset itself to what it 'should' be, every time you pass a waypoint in the GPS' memory.

As long as you don't go wrong from the roadbook (and thus need to reset manually back and forth on the fly), it is a very accurate trip meter - so much so that Si Pavey did bother with a regular ICO this year in the Dakar (although he did have a Trail Tech Vapor fitted as a back up), and simply relied on the trip data from the Speedocap...

Jx

Well I for one hope that it NEVER goes electronic. I like the challenge of having to navigate in the old fashioned sense. This is why I enjoy rally riding so much.

[skibum69]

when are you moving to TO?

[Bluebull2007]

Originally Posted by skibum69

when are you moving to TO?

Probably in the next 2 months.

[Hayduke]

Originally Posted by Bluebull2007

Well I for one hope that it NEVER goes electronic. I like the challenge of having to navigate in the old fashioned sense. This is why I enjoy rally riding so much.

I'm with you.

[skibum69]

agreed, there's nothing quite like having to stop to tape together separated roadbooks

[ArthDuro]

I don't see how it could take away from the experience.

It is still a road book. The information is just delivered through a digital display which if developed properly can be fantastic. If you don't think you could benefit from audio, just unplug the earphones.

I agree that fixing stuff with tape is cool
so if everyone goes digital at least you could still print from it for the paper purists.

[skibum69]

Originally Posted by ArthDuro

I don't see how it could take away from the experience.

It is still a road book. The information is just delivered through a digital display which if developed properly can be fantastic. If you don't think you could benefit from audio, just unplug the earphones.

I agree that fixing stuff with tape is cool
so if everyone goes digital at least you could still print from it for the paper purists.

ok, D. get out and ride a really rally or rally style event and see what it's like. The organic feel of messing with real paper has to be experienced.

[Bluebull2007]

Plus its the nicest feeling in the world to pull out a roadbook at the end of the day. Its bling bling stuff too, non rally racers look at it and go "WTF?? "

We go "Yeah, real men do this...it not for pissies" and do the cool poser look.

Imagine doing that with your geeky toy, they'll say "Oh I got one of those in my pickup"

Seriously:

I guess rallying is about the difficulty of it. Making it easier seems...well that's not waht its about is it?

[dakardood]

I took my 690 out yesterday to give it a blast and I was queing at some traffic lights when a guy in the car next to me wound his window down and shouted out "Hey wtf is that thing at the top there" (pointing at the MD roadbook holder). Its happened a few times.

Originally Posted by Bluebull2007

Its bling bling stuff too, non rally racers look at it and go "WTF?? "

[skibum69]

I hear that, I pulled up downtown on my rally bike one day and through my helmet I could hear a pirate woman saying "what the hell is that?" The only good side was that one of the other pirates standing with her responded with "it looks like he just came from the Paris-Dakar." Virtually no-one in Newfoundland knows what an offroad rally is.

[ArthDuro]

I like roll charts, I have a few tupperware models myself.
That is real navigation, none of this motor powered, back lit, alloy encased trickery that pansies use. Twist it by hand baby that is what real men do.

Purists I tell ya...
Nobody is talking about getting rid of it have your printed books even if it is for bling alone and have all your masochistic/macho paper fun.
This is just for those who like to improve things and consider progress a good thing.

I have done my share of navigating from pace notes in both roll and sheet from. I have made my own notes for a bunch of routes I drive and ride and have been doing so since I was a kid. I was drawing tulips before I even knew what they were called. None of this matters though as this experience left me with these conclusions;

taping things together = sucks (though it is slightly more tolerable when a whole host of other poor tired souls are doing it at the same at the time)
cleaning rolling mechanisms = sucks (unless you are in your garage and have all the time in the world)
printing chart books = sucks mostly (unless you like print in general but even then it wears off)
making corrections with pen = pretty cool as long as you can see what you are doing and make the right ones
being able to hear notes = pretty cool (ask any rally car driver and compare the pace they run)
plotting a route = awesome (even better when you can do it digitally, save and share it, and make mods on the fly)

Remember some cars had devices that improved the ease of navigation
and they were banned from dakar. It sure wasn't because they were crap.
There are obvious advantages there, if the field was level why not?

Hogwild is proposing a device with some serious thought put into it. Would you guys ignore a rally because it doesn't use paper, eventhough the notes are paced? ...........Really???

Challenge here is navigating by pace notes at speed not so much how those notes are delivered. There is the issue of efficiency that is being addressed. How the data from chart is communicated to the driver/rider.
The road book has been progressing for 20 years there is no reason for that to stop.

Purists also thought having 450s in the dakar would suck balls
and end up in an apocalypse of motor parts strewn across the desert and
riders baking in the sun cursing the ASO name (well this part happens anyways) by the hundreds, while being plucked at by vultures.

progress...it is a pain isn't it

Now I am going to go fire up my old dynaTAC because it has no speed dial
and I really like dialing numbers. That is how real cell phoners phone.


and I still love ya'll

[Bluebull2007]

Im glad you got that off your chest, Art. We must definetly have a beer soon.

I'll get you in touch with a friend of mine in RSA who also has this thng for building an audible roadbook.

[HogWild]

Originally Posted by ArthDuro

Hogwild is proposing a device with some serious thought put into it. Would you guys ignore a rally because it doesn't use paper, eventhough the notes are paced?

I have mixed feelings about paper vs digital display. For sure if it was a digital display, I would want it to show only the same info as is on the paper now, and in the same basic format. No maps, no colored line to follow, no corridor displayed, etc.

The advantage of being all digital is you would not have to tape sheets together, fight installing it in the wind, tape it back together when it rips, etc. But with digital, it’s a bit trickier to mark it up with colored markers. Maybe everyone would have to have an iPad in the bivouac, and do all your markups on that, then download it via WiFi to the unit on your bike. Last minute course changes could be WiFi downloaded to your unit by the race organization, in the bivouac, or even on the race course as you pass by a checkpoint. For big teams trying to gain an advantage by mapping out the course ahead of time using the digital data, we already know it’s possible to map the Dakar course, even without the roadbook! And it’s easy to secure the raw digital data so it’s can’t be easily used outside the intended machines. How hard is it to snap photos of the paper roadbook pages, and email them to a team of Google Earth nuts?

The advantage of paper is when it takes a shit, you can repair it with scotch tape. When electronics takes a shit, you’re up shit creek! And I would expect a large screen fully electronic roadbook device to be double or triple the cost of even an MD roadbook reader.

For now I’m not interested in building a device that replaces the paper roadbooks. The audio course notes I’m working on are more for Baja 1000 type racing, not rally racing. There are other audio features that might be great for rally, such as “car approaching quickly from behind”, or for dusty conditions especially in cars “vehicle ahead, 10 ………... 5 ….. 4 …. 3 ….. 2 ….. 1”. A big part of what I’m aiming for is to help racers avoid running over or into other racers where visibility is a problem. This would apply to both Dakar and Baja 1000, for cars and motos. And by throwing in some other attractive features, I think I can make something that is worth the time and $ investment.