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Old 05-31-2011, 11:54 AM   #46
Dr_Bean OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazybrit View Post
I tried the Bean today. It tasted good

To be honest I couldn't understand what the loop of fuel-line (connecting input to output) was supposed to achieve plus I didn't want to cut the OEM crimp
clamps off the lines
.
The loop is to avoid fuel getting out when you take the pump hoses off. If you try it like that the fuel will get out and risk of fire etc.

-If you don't take of the hoses, you don't have that issue.
-A SM has a click-on hose connector, which doesn't leak either.

I'll change that part in the manual. thanks

Quote:
By far the hardest part of the install was getting the grommet back through the plastic cap at the end
yes, thats the part I cannot change: The small rubber is a nasty thing.. if you have done it a few times it becomes easier

Looks like you did a good job: ring below stud on the correct side etc. nice picture too.
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Old 05-31-2011, 12:00 PM   #47
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kits shipped for
ktm950se, Jonz, CPmodem, horse607

I'll ship a max of 10 to usa, and see how it works before shipping more if required.
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Old 05-31-2011, 12:02 PM   #48
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Thanks Doc. I'll give it a good test this summer in Canada and Alaska.
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DISCLAIMER: All observations made in this post are mine and based solely on my own anecdotal experiences, and may contain large doses of facetiousness. YMMV, of course. You are "on your own", and I take no responsibility if someone tries anything in this post and gets into trouble with the law, damages their person or property, or goes blind. Take everything you read or hear "anywhere" butt especially on the Web with a large dose of salt.

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Old 05-31-2011, 06:34 PM   #49
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Other issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Bean View Post
The loop is to avoid fuel getting out when you take the pump hoses off. If you try it like that the fuel will get out and risk of fire etc.

-If you don't take of the hoses, you don't have that issue.
-A SM has a click-on hose connector, which doesn't leak either.

I'll change that part in the manual. thanks



yes, thats the part I cannot change: The small rubber is a nasty thing.. if you have done it a few times it becomes easier

Looks like you did a good job: ring below stud on the correct side etc. nice picture too.
One thing that can be done with the grommet is turn it around and insert from outside -should seal better! The wires can be removed from the connector with a paperclip/wire to do this, but remember to get them back in the same positions.

Also I just discovered yesterday. If one inadvertently bends the tube barbs the pump will not work. Clicks but doesn't pump. It is easily checked by trying to blow thru the pump both ways - shouldn't blow thu one way, and makes a noise ther other. Straightening with a rod fixes it.
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Old 06-03-2011, 10:11 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Bean View Post
kits shipped for
ktm950se, Jonz, CPmodem, horse607

I'll ship a max of 10 to usa, and see how it works before shipping more if required.
Mail to the USA is pretty darn quick. Got my part today. Unfortunately, pesky family needs (kid in college, niece graduating from college) will keep me out of the garage for the next couple weeks.

Thanks for the quick shipping.
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Old 06-04-2011, 04:58 AM   #51
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Congrats!
Still waiting on mine...

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Old 06-04-2011, 07:55 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonz View Post
Mail to the USA is pretty darn quick. Got my part today. Unfortunately, pesky family needs (kid in college, niece graduating from college) will keep me out of the garage for the next couple weeks.

Thanks for the quick shipping.
Well, if it got to you in BFE, it should get to me in BFO by the end of next week . Which should work out good as that's about when I'll get back to the shop.
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DISCLAIMER: All observations made in this post are mine and based solely on my own anecdotal experiences, and may contain large doses of facetiousness. YMMV, of course. You are "on your own", and I take no responsibility if someone tries anything in this post and gets into trouble with the law, damages their person or property, or goes blind. Take everything you read or hear "anywhere" butt especially on the Web with a large dose of salt.

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Old 06-04-2011, 09:31 AM   #53
silverdog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ridewestKTM View Post
One thing that can be done with the grommet is turn it around and insert from outside -should seal better! The wires can be removed from the connector with a paperclip/wire to do this, but remember to get them back in the same positions.

Also I just discovered yesterday. If one inadvertently bends the tube barbs the pump will not work. Clicks but doesn't pump. It is easily checked by trying to blow thru the pump both ways - shouldn't blow thu one way, and makes a noise ther other. Straightening with a rod fixes it.


hey ridewest, is this pretty much the same thing you were making?

what do you think??
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Old 06-04-2011, 06:05 PM   #54
ridewestKTM
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No but look similar

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverdog View Post
hey ridewest, is this pretty much the same thing you were making?

what do you think??
Our boards look same because they have to fit under the cap. but that's it. If you remember gefr put together a bench test. That was similar to Dr Bean's. My system just tries to pump the WOT amount of fuel and when the bike was not WOT the pump just didn't cycle as far and everything is okey dokey, except my generation one and to a lesser degree generation two got a bit warm. My gen 3 runs about as cool as it can and still try to pump WOT fuel. gefr's bench test and Dr Bean's was/is optical. gefr's concept is easy in that the toggle action of the points which gefr's optics "watched" gave the right delay. Dr. Bean's watches the pump shaft. I don't know Dr Beans electronics but I hope he accounted for the toggle delay or "dead band" in his circuit. I suppose that even if he didn't it would still work fairly well. NTL I believe optical is better than my approach in general. For sure Dr Bean's kit will not run warm at low speeds like mine does.
make sense?
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Old 06-04-2011, 11:54 PM   #55
Dr_Bean OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ridewestKTM View Post
My system just tries to pump the WOT amount of fuel and when the bike was not WOT the pump just didn't cycle as far and everything is okey dokey
can you explain:
WOT?
And how did you determine the pump was 'empty' , or how much pumpstroke you needed?
You can detect the pump-rod optically like I do, or magnetically (hall) which is difficult because of the coil fields,
or just detect the end-of-stroke by the current curve of the coil (second zero point in derivative), but you have to detect it someway!

So I do optically, and detect the empty-point (only). The ON time of the pump (sucking in the fuel) is actually fixed (sort of), but gets affected by some dynamic effects indeed. In reality that means that the on-time is a bit to small when it is running very slow, but that doesn't matter: If it doesn't get enough fuel, it will be empty sooner again an d the pump rate will go up...
The ON-time is to big if the pump is sucking in air: Normally that shouldn't happen, and if it happens: no problem... your bike will run out of fuel very soon after anyway; so this situation never lasts long

IF the optical detection fails completely (e.g. because the optics are to dirty) the pump will be activated about 1x per 2 seconds: A safety-run mode (the minimum pump frequency). Enough to bring you home with 60-80 km/h.

When the pump is full, and still running lower then 1x per 2 sec it will be activated anyway: In that case the pump-rod will be pulled to its end and some useless current will flow through the coil... heating it indeed: However, this cannot heat the pump because it is only happening 1x per 2 sec and the on-time is very short compared to this (Duty-cycle is very, very low)

The pump is really over-sized: When running at full speed (about 50% dutycycle) it delivers 70-to-90 liters of fuel per hour: That is enough to drive 300km/h using 1 liter on 4 km's : That is about 3x more then you will ever need, unless you are planning to take the adventure out to the black-rock desert for a testrun after fitting it with a couple of turbos

hence, in reality a maximum speed (=maximum consumption/time) the pump will only do about 20-30% dutycyle (on/off): In such case you also have lots of air-cooling and fuel-cooling in the pump.

I did take my own bike (with the prototype) into the sand-dunes of Morocco during rally, where the red-temperature light does go on: no problems
I sold my kit in Italy and Greece, where it does get warm: no problems so far.
But maybe not as warm as California or Nevada deserts (been there...): So DO take it out for a very hot testdrive and let me know!!!


IF EVER the kit would fail (useful for world-travelers!): you can very easily convert back to the original contact breakers!! So if you replace the contact breakers before they actually fail completely: save them, and take them as spare (including the 2 screws).
What do you need to do to revers it:
- Desolder (or cut if you don;t have anything) the black-coil-wire from PCB to pump-coil
- Desolder the blue-black wire to the PCB and form PCB-to-pump (this wire was cut for installing the kit)
- remove the kit and studs
- remount the contact breakers (note the ground wire whould be below one of the screws)
- connect the 2 ends of the blue-black wire together, and isolate them (you could use a fast shrink-fit)
- reconnect the coil wire to the breakers (original soldering)
Done!

ok: you need a soldering iron (the same holds for replacing the contact breakers): But in case of emergency you could do without: tying the wires together and put some tape over it.




Best way would be to detect both empty and full, but then I would need to mount something to detect the other end of the pumpstroke. I Tried to use the grove in the rod-end, but that is just too far away: Too tricky. I wanted to keep it as simple as possible: not adding more mechanical components

Dr_Bean screwed with this post 06-05-2011 at 08:24 AM
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Old 06-05-2011, 12:02 AM   #56
cpmodem
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Nice explanation Doc

wot = wide open throttle
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DISCLAIMER: All observations made in this post are mine and based solely on my own anecdotal experiences, and may contain large doses of facetiousness. YMMV, of course. You are "on your own", and I take no responsibility if someone tries anything in this post and gets into trouble with the law, damages their person or property, or goes blind. Take everything you read or hear "anywhere" butt especially on the Web with a large dose of salt.

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Old 06-05-2011, 08:04 AM   #57
ridewestKTM
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more discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Bean View Post
can you explain:
WOT?
And how did you determine the pump was 'empty' , or how much pumpstroke you needed?
You can detect the pump-rod optically like I do, or magnetically (hall) which is difficult because of the coil fields,
or just detect the end-of-stroke by the current curve of the coil (second zero point in derivative), but you have to detect it someway!

So I do optically, and detect the empty-point (only). The ON time of the pump (sucking in the fuel) is actually fixed (sort of), but gets affected by some dynamic effects indeed. In reality that means that the on-time is a bit to small when it is running very slow, but that doesn't matter: If it doesn't get enough fuel, it will be empty sooner again an d the pump rate will go up...
The ON-time is to big if the pump is sucking in air: Normally that shouldn't happen, and if it happens: no problem... your bike will run out of fuel very soon after anyway; so this situation never lasts long

IF the optical detection fails completely (e.g. because the optics are to dirty) the pump will be activated about 1x per 2 seconds: A safety-run mode (the minimum pump frequency). Enough to bring you home with 60-80 km/h.

When the pump is full, and still running lower then 1x per 2 sec it will be activated anyway: In that case the pump-rod will be pulled to its end and some useless current will flow through the coil... heating it indeed: However, this cannot heat the pump because it is only happening 1x per 2 sec and the on-time is very short compared to this (Duty-cycle is very, very low)

The pump is really over-sized: When running at full speed (about 50% dutycycle) it delivers 70-to-90 liters of fuel per hour: That is enough to drive 300km/h using 1 liter on 4 km's : That is about 3x more then you will ever need, unless you are planning to take the adventure out to the black-rock desert for a testrun after fitting it with a couple of turbos

hence, in reality a maximum speed (=maximum consumption/time) the pump will only do about 20-30% dutycyle (on/off): In such case you also have lots of air-cooling and fuel-cooling in the pump.

I did take my own bike (with the prototype) into the sand-dunes of Morocco during rally, where the red-temperature light does go on: no problems
I sold my kit in Italy and Greece, where it does get warm: no problems so far.
But maybe not as warm as California or Nevada deserts (been there...): So DO take it out for a very hot testdrive and let me know!!!



ok: you need a soldering iron (the same holds for replacing the contact breakers): But in case of emergency you could do without: tying the wires together and put some tape over it.




Best way would be to detect both empty and full, but then I would need to mount

I'm sorry. I lost everything I wrote. I am going to be very short so not to loose what I write and I'm near out of time too.

My system has an approx 30% duty cycle. It pumps on a regular frequency. If the pump is full already it short strokes on the discharge. This way it always has a 30% heat load. Yours if set up right I assume it is, has an on period sufficent to cock the pump on the suck stroke. Then when fully discharged it fires again. Therefore only heating is when it fires and it only fires when disgorged. Better system then mine.
I still have some gen3 kits (coolest), gen 2s were about 40% duty cycle. But they will just sit here except special cases. You have the right thing.
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Old 06-06-2011, 10:24 AM   #58
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Received mine in the mail today.
Thank you Dr Bean
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Old 06-06-2011, 12:14 PM   #59
rider914
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Bean View Post
kits shipped for
ktm950se, Jonz, CPmodem, horse607

I'll ship a max of 10 to usa, and see how it works before shipping more if required.
I've lost track of this thread...
If there is a list, i'd like to get on it

-M
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Old 06-06-2011, 09:10 PM   #60
jonz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Bean View Post
But maybe not as warm as California or Nevada deserts (been there...): So DO take it out for a very hot testdrive and let me know!!!
That will be my job though this has been the coolest spring here I can remember in 28 years out here. Sadly, that will end - probably the day I have to sit in the garage and do the install. I'm sure in the next month we'll see 110+ fahrenheit (isn't that like 45 C?).
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