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Old 06-07-2011, 10:52 AM   #46
cliffy109
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Well... hmmm... how do I put this? My mesh gear was replaced because the EMS guys had to cut it off me. I don't care if your gear is nylon, cordura, kevlar or kryptonite, if they cut it off you, you're going to be replacing it.

My gear survived quite nicely. There were no tears and all the seams were fine. The fact is, a 650 pound bike landed on my back so lifting up my butt to get the pants off just wan't going to be allowed. Same for slipping the jacket off my shoulders.
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Old 06-07-2011, 11:10 AM   #47
MotoTex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
BMG (Belstaff) "Adventure" Jacket with zip on hydration system is far and away the best Hot weather Jacket I have ever used (or seen)
Overall, the BMG design hits a lot of my key points. Breathable, removable waterproof liner, built-in hydration is nice (and provides some back protection too I'd bet), pads in all the key places, and it is a fine looking piece of gear.

Then, they go and make it with a shell material that may not hold it all together in a crash.

The shell's 500 Denier Cordura tears at 22 lbs., and doesn't quite seem appropriate for motorcycle gear.

For comparison;
  • blue jeans tear at 4.5 lbs.,
  • new, competition grade leather tears at 80-110 lbs. and,
  • Motoport Kevlar Mesh tears at 1260 lbs. (57 times greater than the BMG Adventure)

Even if you are sliding on the pads, the fabric or seams will likely fail removing that protective layer from between the skin and the asphalt.

That's the one-time-use flavor of gear that just doesn't cut the mustard for me.

If I'm spending hundreds of dollars on a jacket I really expect it to hold up. If I have to spend a little more to get fifty times the protection, maybe it's a better value.

Most manufacturers seem to only make a half-hearted attempt to provide a product that will protect the rider, and, that will remain intact when put to the test.

Granted, after the crash it's really kewl to tell folks how you survived a crash that shredded your gear, but, really, is that what you expected in performance from your purchase?

What if you lose a lot of skin. Are you satisfied with your purchase?

Will you go out and buy another piece of gear made with materials that will not hold up?

Everything is a compromise when choosing gear. Price, heat/cold management, style, protection, and overall value each will play a role in our choices. What do you expect your hard-earned paycheck to be buying?

If (cue Billy Crystal here) "it's better to look good than it is to feel good," the lightweight materials with a myriad of colors and lumps and technical buzzwords like "Teflon coated" (bwahahahahaha), that provide a false sense of security and a heightened sense of fashion might be just the ticket for some riders.

After 40+ years of riding I've gotten a little picky about what I wrap my hide in.

I'd rather sweat than bleed.

If I have to compromise, it will be biased toward function over form.

The BMG Adventure is a very nice looking jacket. Sincerely.

This and many others fall short of my criteria for rider wear when they build them from materials better suited for hiking, caving, motocross and other slower speed activities, with no chance of winning an argument with a road surface at higher speeds.

YMMV
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Old 06-07-2011, 11:37 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
That's the one-time-use flavor of gear that just doesn't cut the mustard for me.

If I'm spending hundreds of dollars on a jacket I really expect it to hold up. If I have to spend a little more to get fifty times the protection, maybe it's a better value.
You should really read that thread.
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Old 06-07-2011, 11:58 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by ph0rk View Post
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=685652

Regardless of the material, a mesh jacket that flows lots of air does more harm than good over 93-95 degrees.
I have seen that thread, but hadn't visited it in a few weeks. Thanks for the link.

A lot of airflow can be the enemy in higher temps. True enough.

The Motoport really doesn't flow a LOT of air, especially behind a windshield. It seems that it does flow just enough. It is much more comfortable in the heat than the Roadcrafter I wore. I do have to keep fluids coming in, but you have to do this in the heat anyway.

The gear has lots of perforated protection panels covering the chest/ribs, forearms/elbows, shoulder, back, knee/shin, thigh, etc. that choke any significant flow. See the above referenced thread for some pics of the protection panels fitted on a guy modeling them.

It flows enough that a technical T underneath stays a little moist, but neither is it dry nor soaked. I'm don't feel chilled when moving, and don't feel my core temp is over-heating either.

To me it's more like a tent with a light breeze than it is a net with a gale blowing through. Kinda like the robes worn by desert dwellers that provide shade and light evaporation without sucking the water out of the wearer.

For the Texas environment it seems a perfect balance, based upon my riding here for decades and wearing everything from jeans and jean jackets up through jeans and leather jackets, and into synthetic suits. This is the most appropriate gear I have owned for my comfort and protection year-round.

This might be different for a rider on a naked bike. My experience with it has only been behind a windshield.

I think this suit is worth mentioning to anyone looking for feedback on what has worked for other riders.
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Old 06-07-2011, 12:23 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by ph0rk View Post
You should really read that thread.
That thread has a lot of good information.

Wayne could have a better customer experience at times it seems, but this in no way detracts from the quality, function, and durability of the suit when compared apples to apples against every other suit out there, including custom race leathers.

If you have read the thread you saw one poster mentioning how he wasn't wearing the suit properly and the pads shifted, despite which the suit still protected him very well.

If you saw the photos of a few tears and abrasions on the Motoport suit you can only imagine what a 500 or 1000 Denier Cordura suit would look like after the same crash.

One guy is still wearing the Motoport jacket after a crash that tore a few holes, and doesn't plan to send it in for repair. I doubt this would happen with a lesser quality suit after the same level of abuse.

If this interests you at all, you really should click that link to testimonials in my earlier post for some perspective.

There are several Motoport threads on ADV and elsewhere. If this is something you are interested in check them out too. I read all I could find before purchase, a couple of years ago.

I had been planning to get another Aerostich when I stumbled into a magazine review comparing the two suits. Then through my search I began to learn more, before laying down a grand for the whole package including the rain gear, custom pockets, etc. After extensive research I chose the Motoport, because it provided the qualities I placed highest on my list.

This criteria may not be the same for everyone.

That's my two cents. (yeah, you can still get a lot for two cents. )
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Old 06-07-2011, 12:48 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
If this interests you at all, you really should click that link to testimonials in my earlier post for some perspective.
I've read them. I remain unimpressed with the product and especially the company.

A: I get gear replacement with my insurance so gear lasting past a crash isn't an issue.

B: I would never give that company money, under any circumstances based on their customer disservice.

C: Mesh is a stopgap short range option, not what I'd use for long trips unless it happens to be the perfect week in spring or fall, and there are plenty of other solid textile options.

I've seen several shots of motoport gear that needs repair, and shots of "plain" cordura gear (aerostich and olympia) that doesn't after a crash. I doubt any crash I may or may not have will be the same as the ones they had, so it is all taken with a grain of salt. Frankly, anything with a price tag and cultish following like motoport will tend to bias reports towards the positive, so the multiple cases of bad customer service and support really drive the point home.

But hey, if you already own their stuff, I sincerely hope you never have a problem with it or with them - I'm just not touching it, and wouldn't suggest anyone else do either.
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Old 06-07-2011, 03:43 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ph0rk View Post
I've read them. I remain unimpressed with the product and especially the company.

A: I get gear replacement with my insurance so gear lasting past a crash isn't an issue.

B: I would never give that company money, under any circumstances based on their customer disservice.

C: Mesh is a stopgap short range option, not what I'd use for long trips unless it happens to be the perfect week in spring or fall, and there are plenty of other solid textile options.

I've seen several shots of motoport gear that needs repair, and shots of "plain" cordura gear (aerostich and olympia) that doesn't after a crash. I doubt any crash I may or may not have will be the same as the ones they had, so it is all taken with a grain of salt. Frankly, anything with a price tag and cultish following like motoport will tend to bias reports towards the positive, so the multiple cases of bad customer service and support really drive the point home.

But hey, if you already own their stuff, I sincerely hope you never have a problem with it or with them - I'm just not touching it, and wouldn't suggest anyone else do either.
I appreciate that you feel the way you do, but I'd like to respond not so much to convince you as to make clear that the opinion you hold is based entirely upon zero personal experience with either the gear or the business, and a lot of what you have written is misleading or completely wrong, based upon my actual experience with both the gear and the company. (I will admit that Wayne has a unique personality, but he isn't the only master craftsman I've ever met who was a little eccentric)

Their price is on par with the other industry leaders, so that really isn't much of a point. For a custom made suit, it is reasonably priced, comparatively.

This mesh suit is the only gear I wear year round and was purchased because it does adapt for all seasons and all weather conditions, much as the Roadcrafter it replaced did. If it were a niche option for a single season I would have chosen something else. I don't have a closet full of fashion wear, just this one suit.

Maybe the 4000 miles I rode over twelve days in late April/early May that took me across the Ohio river nine times during the rains and flooding that made the news wouldn't hold any water in your estimation. On one five state 400+ mile day I rode all day in the pouring rain without getting wet. The suit was comfy and dry. So, perhaps you shouldn't be making claims about gear that are only based upon your assumptions.

Quality and performance isn't a priority for everyone. That's why so many people shop at Wal-Mart and throw it away after a season and buy another next year. It has become a part of the American experience.

The last suit I bought lasted me twenty years and a hundred thousand miles of riding. I expect this one to last at least as long.

If I chose not to buy from any store that has a few vocal dissatisfied customers, that was otherwise very highly rated by industry professionals, and, had plenty of satisfied customers, I would probably never buy anything at all.

When I'm looking for a reason not to do something it is always easy to find one.

I hope you never have the opportunity to test the protection of gear that doesn't score as high on tear and abrasion tests. If you should, I hope you fare well.

As an aside, whenever someone adamantly and repeatedly slams gear or businesses and they have no personal experience with them, this makes it seem to me like they might have an axe to grind, be working for a competitor, or something along those lines. Not that this is the case, it just leaves that impression.

Just sayin'

good luck, ride safe
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Old 06-07-2011, 04:35 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
As an aside, whenever someone adamantly and repeatedly slams gear or businesses and they have no personal experience with them, this makes it seem to me like they might have an axe to grind, be working for a competitor, or something along those lines. Not that this is the case, it just leaves that impression.
Repeatedly? I don't really have much to say about them, other than that I don't think their material is magic and I've seen enough bad press to steer clear.

I stand by my statement that mesh is a niche product - either it doesn't flow much air at all or it flows too much for 95+ heat. That goes for motoport, olympia, or anyone else. Wear mesh in 100+ degree heat and you'll sweat much more than you would in a vented jacket (39 oz per hour at 103 f, based on the IronButt document). That leads to dehydration and poor judgement.

Most every manufacturer of a mesh jacket/pants has some form of wind/rain liner that does just fine at cooler weather and rain, and that isn't a complaint I've had. What does matter to me for mesh is hot weather performance, and the hard fact is that above a certain temperature, a solid-body vented jacket is a better option.

I suppose someone could come up with a wind/rain liner that would limit venting for temperatures above 95 degrees, but that seems like making three left turns instead of a right - you'd be better off with a vented solid body jacket of the sort dozens of manufacturers make at varying price points.
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Old 06-07-2011, 07:51 PM   #54
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I went down in my BMG Adventure once and you have to look real close to see evidence of the impact and abrasion it sustained.

I have had several offs while wearing it off-road. Me thinks that BMG gear holds up far better than you think.
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Old 06-07-2011, 07:57 PM   #55
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I've worn Motoport in hot and cold for years and like it.

You haven't and don't.

Where is this discussion going?
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Old 06-07-2011, 08:09 PM   #56
DAKEZ
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Originally Posted by Cranky Yankee View Post
I've worn Motoport in hot and cold for years and like it. You haven't and don't.

Where is this discussion going?
Are you just tossing that out there for all the 27 other people that have posted to the thread or did you mean to tie it to a particular post?
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Old 06-07-2011, 08:23 PM   #57
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Dismissing a solution never tried is a weak argument.

By all means support what you know but discounting something because of what you read is, well, you know.
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Old 06-07-2011, 09:30 PM   #58
MotoTex
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Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
I went down in my BMG Adventure once and you have to look real close to see evidence of the impact and abrasion it sustained.

I have had several offs while wearing it off-road. Me thinks that BMG gear holds up far better than you think.
Years ago I was Jonesing bad for the Belstaff waxed canvas jacket. Like back in the late 70's. It looked pretty cool back then. Glad to see they are still in the business as BMG.

Fortunately, most of our get-offs are at slower speeds. I don't know if that was the case with yours, or if any pavement was involved.

Off road gear using 500-1000D Cordura is great in that application. I have a Moose jacket that fits over the chest protector and it works fine for off-roading in cold weather. MX pants only need cover the pads underneath and I've rarely torn pants, but have torn plenty of jerseys riding dirt.

The place where the higher abrasion-rated materials will have the most significant benefit is in the worse case scenario of sliding down the pavement for a hundred feet or more at highway speeds. For street riding gear that's the protection I aim for. Fortunately I've never needed it, but when buying I take the "better to have and not need . . ." attitude.

It's good to know that the Adventure jacket is holding up well after some field testing.
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Old 06-07-2011, 09:47 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
The place where the higher abrasion-rated materials will have the most significant benefit is in the worse case scenario of sliding down the pavement for a hundred feet or more at highway speeds.

Yup! It just so happened that I was wearing leather the one time I went down going fast. (Hit some ice at 60mph+/-)

The three other on pavement offs while wearing Textile gear were all 35mph- All performed well...As in I did not get hurt. One of the Textile Jackets was toast (Fieldsheer) But I was happy and felt I got my $$$ worth. My Discovery and my Adventure (Belstaff/BMG) show no signs of their use.

I am sure that the MotoPort Ultra II Air Mesh Kevlar Jacket is a fine Jacket... It had better be. It costs as much as I paid for my Adventure, Challenger and Discovery combined.

Radioman has one and I know he likes his.
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Old 06-07-2011, 11:11 PM   #60
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Finally read the IronButt article and it seems that I'm doing everything right.

After having lived ten years in the Texas Big Bend region of the Chihuahuan Desert, I have some personal experience beyond reading about this stuff.

Routinely making runs to Midland, El Paso, Austin, and Houston in the Summer will teach you a few tricks for survival in high temps and various levels of humidity. The article confirmed what my experience had taught.

When it's over 90F and I'll be spending more than an hour on the bike I'll wear bicycle shorts and wicking shirts, Merino Wool is my favorite so far, also will wear Merino Wool socks, and I've been wearing a Texas Headskin under a full-face helmet year-round since the mid-80's.

Carrying a three-liter hydration bladder in the tankbag, filled with ice water to sip on is standard procedure, just like when I ride my mountain bike in those temps.

Riding behind a windshield with a mesh suit seems to be fine based upon the parameters outlined in the article.

Great article! Anyone who rides in these temps should have that information.

Condemning any application of mesh in these temps and referencing that article really isn't doing the research merit, as the author states how any suit that provides ~10 mph ventilation combined with wicking undergarments will minimize the heat gain and reduce the water loss to a manageable rate.

A good understanding of the physics and their effects on the body will allow anyone to make a mesh suit work well in such an environment, when they take steps to reduce the velocity of airflow inside the suit.

Even on a naked bike, if there is too much airflow this could be as easy as placing a wind barrier between the chest and the front of the suit. Cut up a pizza box, or use one of those free classified papers to create a make-shift wind barrier inside the jacket on those rare occasions you may need to.

Granted, wearing a mesh suit with bare skin underneath and all the armor removed, riding on a naked bike without hydration could be a bad combination when taking a multi-hour ride in triple digits.

That seems to be an unlikely scenario, though a squid or a newb could make the mistake.

Keep in mind the article is in Iron Butt magazine and is specifically targeting folks riding long distances and encountering extreme conditions.

Consider how often you find yourself riding for hundreds of miles in these conditions each year and make the appropriate choice for the lion's share of the riding conditions normally encountered.

This article (IMHO) is insufficient reason for most folks in the South and West to entirely avoid buying mesh.

Well, unless you are a practicing nudist living in Death Valley, commuting to Phoenix on a Norton Commando through the Summer months.
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