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Old 08-02-2011, 09:57 AM   #16
SkiFly01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davegaz View Post
Fuel strip replaced last November. So the warranty on the entire pump is extended? I didn't know that.
They gotta mess with the tank flanges to get the strips, so yea you should be covered.
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:23 AM   #17
malloy
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Thumb Thanks JVB

JVB - Got it. Clever as always. I think I'll glue a PVC cap to the top, drill a hole through it then fasten a bolt through the hole. That way I can put a socket on it with a torque wrench. Idles hands, etc.
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Old 08-03-2011, 07:55 AM   #18
TXjames
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I'm not familiar with this failure. Only had my 07 GSA for >1 yr. But why not replace the QD top and bottom with a solid 90 degree elbow. Yamabond the threads, flange, and everything else without any Pam to completely bond and seal everything. Then place a sturdy in-line QD downstream a little ways. This may require rotating the exit of the 90 a little given the small amount of clearance between that and the fuel pump cover clamping ring (the one requiring the special tool for removal). If the original fuel line is too short then I would think that a small bit of fuel line could be added between the QD and the new 90 to accommodate that. I would also zip-tie up the new QD to something solid to relieve any stress on the flange.

Feel free to tell me why this method would not work... I may be fighting this very issue some day.
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Old 08-03-2011, 08:03 AM   #19
ragtoplvr
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ALL fuel leaks from cracking and bad design should be reported to the NTSB. I do not think this was a good design. Plastic is not suited for female pipe threads, as stated the hoop stress gets very high. It should have been a straight thread with an o-ring for seal. design defect. BMW is not going to fix this with out some pressure.

Rod
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Old 08-03-2011, 03:10 PM   #20
JStancampiano
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My failure has been reported!!

Joe

Quote:
Originally Posted by ragtoplvr View Post
ALL fuel leaks from cracking and bad design should be reported to the NTSB. I do not think this was a good design. Plastic is not suited for female pipe threads, as stated the hoop stress gets very high. It should have been a straight thread with an o-ring for seal. design defect. BMW is not going to fix this with out some pressure.

Rod
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Old 08-03-2011, 04:35 PM   #21
davegaz OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragtoplvr View Post
ALL fuel leaks from cracking and bad design should be reported to the NTSB. I do not think this was a good design. Plastic is not suited for female pipe threads, as stated the hoop stress gets very high. It should have been a straight thread with an o-ring for seal. design defect. BMW is not going to fix this with out some pressure.

Rod
Mine too.
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Old 08-03-2011, 08:29 PM   #22
flemsmith
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Been out of touch a bit...

...travelling north out of the heat. But Dave asked me about my repair.....I did use the loctite shown in the earlier post that comes in a can like pringles....unfortunately, I had first tried to fix the theads only with regular JB Weld. Should have known that wouldn't hold for long....So I actually used the loctite over the JB Weld, all around the threads. It's not real pretty, and for that reason, I ordered the $100 tool and the new plastic piece that includes the fuel pump, or some related expensive parts....for now I have those parts in storage, waiting to see if the loctite epoxy starts to fail.

Has been fine for some time, I really don't remember how long, but I know it's been well over a year.

roy
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Old 08-04-2011, 03:52 PM   #23
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Thanks Roy.
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Old 08-04-2011, 07:24 PM   #24
JimVonBaden
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OK, so today I was riding home at the bike was pissing gas in a near stream. My cracks have expanded.



I took it back apart and see where the design of the replacement female (male threaded) metal insert has a ridge that spreads the plastic.

As a temp fix, because I need to ride, I added some fuel resistent pipe threading and a thick washer to take the strain off the pump flange. I tested it for half an hour with no leak, but I am confident this will not hold.

I will be replacing the fuel pump, since the flange is not available seperately, when it comes in.

I'll post the home made tool I make to remove the large ring, and the process.

Jim
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Old 08-04-2011, 09:22 PM   #25
davegaz OP
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That sucks. But I have to say the timing is somewhat fortuitous for the rest of us.

This ridge you describe on the metal insert-- do you think it contributed to the problem? I was considering getting a new flange and immediately replacing the plastic quick connect with the metal ones, making sure they are not overtorqued. Maybe not a good idea?

As far as the availability of the flange, you might check the fiche for other bikes that may use the same pump to see if a separate flange is listed. For example, the 2010 GS uses the same pump P/N as the 08-09, but the flange is listed as a separate part only on the 08-09 fiche. Go figure.

So in my little worldview I have 4 data points. Mine cracked after 3 years. Roy's lasted 3 or 4 years. A friend's 2006 RT cracked right before his 3 year warranty expired. Jim's seemed to have lasted a little longer. Maybe I'll make the old pump into a piggy bank to save for the next one in 3 years.
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Old 08-04-2011, 09:44 PM   #26
Jason1202GStime!
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Hi Jim,

May I suggest some alternatives to savage the fuel pump flange?

On my 05, I got this problem about 6 months ago on both flange!

What I did was to source for second hand flange and fix both the old and "new" flanges.

When the second hand flange came in(I got it from a guy in UK for less than $120 USD), it also has some cracks forming at the threaded area.

What I did was that I "plastic welded" the cracks line with a soldering gun and re-inforce it with expoxy coating. I use the epoxy to "strengthen" the extruding thread area so that it will be much tougher.

With these two prongs attack on the flange, the flange is still on my bike till today!

But please tale note that no every type of epoxy can withstand the petrol. If the "plastic welding" does not close the crack line properly, it will "eat" into the expoxy in a matter of time.

Regards,
Jason
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Old 08-05-2011, 06:26 AM   #27
JimVonBaden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason1202GStime! View Post
Hi Jim,

May I suggest some alternatives to savage the fuel pump flange?

On my 05, I got this problem about 6 months ago on both flange!

What I did was to source for second hand flange and fix both the old and "new" flanges.

When the second hand flange came in(I got it from a guy in UK for less than $120 USD), it also has some cracks forming at the threaded area.

What I did was that I "plastic welded" the cracks line with a soldering gun and re-inforce it with expoxy coating. I use the epoxy to "strengthen" the extruding thread area so that it will be much tougher.

With these two prongs attack on the flange, the flange is still on my bike till today!

But please tale note that no every type of epoxy can withstand the petrol. If the "plastic welding" does not close the crack line properly, it will "eat" into the expoxy in a matter of time.

Regards,
Jason
Hi Jason,

As sugested above, I will be looking for just the top part, but may not be sucessful.

I am also considering making and fitting a collar for the ridge around the female threads. If I can get a tight fit, and use some epoxy, it may solve the issue as well, and much cheaper.

As for the metal insert, it is identical to the plastic one, which may be the reason even the plastic ones fail. There appears to be some pressure put on the raised female portion by the ridge on the insert. Adding a small spacer moves the pressure to the top of the raised female threaded portion, removing the outward stress on the ridge, and forcing the sealing part to the threads. Not ideal, as the insert seems to want to seal on the contact point, think oil drain plug with a crush washer.



Speaking of that, maybe a washer made of semi-hard plastic would be a better spacer than a flat washer? I'll look into that as well.

I'll get some pictures to illustrate what I am thinking soon.

Jim
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Old 08-05-2011, 07:26 AM   #28
davegaz OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
Hi Jason,

As sugested above, I will be looking for just the top part, but may not be sucessful.

I am also considering making and fitting a collar for the ridge around the female threads. If I can get a tight fit, and use some epoxy, it may solve the issue as well, and much cheaper.

As for the metal insert, it is identical to the plastic one, which may be the reason even the plastic ones fail. There appears to be some pressure put on the raised female portion by the ridge on the insert. Adding a small spacer moves the pressure to the top of the raised female threaded portion, removing the outward stress on the ridge, and forcing the sealing part to the threads. Not ideal, as the insert seems to want to seal on the contact point, think oil drain plug with a crush washer.



Speaking of that, maybe a washer made of semi-hard plastic would be a better spacer than a flat washer? I'll look into that as well.

I'll get some pictures to illustrate what I am thinking soon.

Jim
This is an unusual application of a pipe thread. As you know, pipe threads are tapered and as you tighten the joint the threads pull the tapers together forming the seal. The wedging action is what creates the high stress in the female collar. What's wierd is that the fitting tightens down all the way to where the hex "nut" face contacts the flange collar. A typical pipe thread joint will leave one or more exposed male threads. This ensures that the tapers are properly loaded and NOT the nut face. You don't want both.

By adding a washer, but you will lose the seal provided by the taper. You'll be relying on a thick layer of thread sealant. May work ok.

Like someone mentioned above, a straight thread with an o-ring would have been better.

The bigger issue may be the continued material degradation over time. The loads and stress on your flange haven't changed, but the cracks extended. This may be a warning sign, i.e., leak before break.
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Old 08-05-2011, 07:48 AM   #29
JimVonBaden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davegaz View Post
This is an unusual application of a pipe thread. As you know, pipe threads are tapered and as you tighten the joint the threads pull the tapers together forming the seal. The wedging action is what creates the high stress in the female collar. What's wierd is that the fitting tightens down all the way to where the hex "nut" face contacts the flange collar. A typical pipe thread joint will leave one or more exposed male threads. This ensures that the tapers are properly loaded and NOT the nut face. You don't want both.

By adding a washer, but you will lose the seal provided by the taper. You'll be relying on a thick layer of thread sealant. May work ok.

Like someone mentioned above, a straight thread with an o-ring would have been better.

The bigger issue may be the continued material degradation over time. The loads and stress on your flange haven't changed, but the cracks extended. This may be a warning sign, i.e., leak before break.
I agree, and this is why I think a collar around the flange might be the best route to follow. I am not crazy about using sealant to hold back 40+ psi.

Like the one on the right, with little or no lip to get in the way of the sealing edge.



I considered an O-ring, but there is no good way to make it work as is. The washer in installed puts the pressure on the top of the flange, and forces the thread tape to be the seal. It is working, but I do not know for how long as this is not the way it was designed.

Jim
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Old 08-05-2011, 08:19 AM   #30
ragtoplvr
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They make heat shrink metal rings. They shrink completely at 100C so should be safe for the plastic.

Here is a link.

http://www.intrinsicdevices.com/

They are not cheap, but if they have one the right size these could fix a flange, they can exert a huge amount of force in a completely uniform manner.

If they work there is a vendor opportunity for someone.

Rod
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